I should have separated the two parts of my post. Faggot is almost exclusively a wildly offensive term. While it has its roots in gay hate, it is often used with no feeling of animosity towards homosexuals. Offensive? Of course. Homophobic? Not always. It will be more or less offensive depending on where/how/who. I also want to jump back to the whole "nigger" discussion. The whole reclaiming the word thing, and use of the word "nigga" is pretty touchy. I grew up with a very diverse group of friends, and we would throw around a few "my nigga"s from time to time. No harm no foul. I believe that while "nigger" will never be acceptable, "nigga" could become fairly inoffensive over time (time being the key thing here). It has a drastically different use and connotation that "nigger," despite having a common root. Question for the black members of this board: is a white person using the word "nigga" as offensive as terms like "spook" or "darkie" or "coon"? In my mind the latter terms hold more weight in the sense that for someone to actually use them they'd have to be pretty fucking racist. "Nigga" is fairly inoffensive among the people I hang out with, but if i dropped "spook" i'm pretty sure i'd be in the hospital.
Sure, this is almost assuredly true. In fact, we've probably all done some form of this at some point in time. But it doesn't make the word itself not homophobic. Things can have meanings that the speaker did not intend. The fact that someone does not intend for the word to carry its historical baggage doesn't mean stop it from doing so.
The use can be non-homophobic even when the word itself is. It can't remove the historical baggage, but it can certainly (at least so far as I'm concerned) lighten it's weight. I believe offense originates with intent. You may disagree. The most offensive thing i've ever been called was "boy," and that was because of the harm it was meant to cause in context, not the word itself.
Yeah, you guys are totally missing my point. I bring up that word because, besides being a really fun sound to say, it's a perfect example of a word that, unlike nigger, has changed many times over its existence, and it doesn't stop changing because someone says so. In fact, in this case specifically, I think we should be actively trying to change it away from any sexual connotation. And if you don't think it can be done, you're the uncreative one. Of course no one means that. Just like no one means "You are an outdated feminine hygiene product" when they call someone a douchebag. The similarity is that, shockingly, some words change their meaning over time, and some don't. Faggot has changed (and IS changing) for as long as its been around. Nigger has not. But that's not because some authority sent a memo to everyone telling them to be ashamed to use it, they just naturally (and rightly) became ashamed as the culture changed. It’s like when you call someone a cock sucker. You aren’t saying “you are person who pleasures men orally, and I find that offensive”, because who would hate someone for doing such a wonderful thing? Cocksucker, like faggot, is MUCH closer to jerk, or prick, or asshole, or big meanie, than it is to “person who pleasures men orally”. I didn't realize you were the authority on what words mean, but no, it doesn't mean JUST that (certainly not in the same way nigger ONLY means nigger). Trey Parker didn't randomly pick this word because he wanted to change it. He/they picked it because to him, like a lot of other people, using it as a derogatory slur towards gay people doesn't make sense, since they've never used it in that way, and they believe there is a more accurate and appropriate way to use it (obnoxious Harley riders). Guess what? That's a fair and valid position. Oh come on (assuming I'm reading that correctly). Intent counts for nothing? You can't be serious. Do you mean ALL of its historical baggage, or only a particular part? If so, which part? If I'm driving you in my car, and someone cuts me off and I call them a faggot, do you need me to explain that I didn't mean I think he was a homosexual OR a balled up piece of meat, but I was in fact upset at his behaviour (my original point that no one seems to have read)? EDIT - Best way I can put it: you know the Westboro Baptist people holding those signs? Total fags. The very definition of fags, in fact.
OK, so if calling someone a cocksucker is unrelated to the act of fellatio, why is it insulting? What is the insult there? This usage makes absolutely no sense in a vacuum, because it's meaning is intrinsically tied to you are like a person who sucks cocks. There is a reason "cocksucker" is an insult, and "racecar driver" is not. No, it's because they are mad that some big meanieheads are trying to take away their favorite word. It's childish, myopic, and selfish. There are people who think they can use nigger however they please, because it doesn't "only mean nigger." And they would make almost the exact same argument you're making right: it used to mean that, but now language has "evolved," and you're an asshole for assuming they're racist. And if a homosexual hears it, he should be obligated to think, "Oh, no big deal bro, no big deal" because you happen to be a liberal words-freer? You don't live in a vacuum. In the comfort of your own home or car, scream faggot all you want, but in the real world where language exists as a means of communicating with other human beings, the speaker doesn't get the right to define how the audience interprets what he said. He can suggest it, but it's up to the audience to determine whether they're willing to go along with it. The intent that matters for whether or not a word is offensive is not the actual intent, but the perceived intent of the person hearing it. Even if you're not saying it in the presence of a homosexual person, you're encouraging it's further use, and eventually someone will say it in front of a gay person. Everyone else, despite your Utopian vision of a world where bros can just call other bros fag, has to live in the real world where it's a term used to belittle, oppress, and abuse actual people whose feelings you seem to not believe are worth considering. Using fag as a derogatory terms doesn't necessarily make you a person who hates gay people, it just makes you a little bit of an asshole.
The fun part about language is that the user can define the meaning of his words by the way he uses them. "Racecar driver" might not have double use, but the word "clown" certainly does. My dad uses that all the time as a derogatory and insulting term. It's hidden root? A guy who makes kids laugh and gives out animal balloons.
You just answered your own question. You're right, we don't live in a vacuum, and that's why words can change their meaning with the culture. Excluding pronouns and prepositions and words like that, very few words have the same definition over their lives. Faggot is an example of one that has changed often. Nigger is a (seemingly rare) example of one that has not. They could try to use the same argument, but they would be wrong, because that word hasn't changed even if they say so, just like faggot has changed even if you say it hasn't. If you don't believe me, what is the alternate definition of nigger that this hypothetical racist could claim to mean? He's not obligated to think anything, but unless he's dense, he should have the common sense to recognize intent. Speaking of... Wow, I feel like I'm in some bizarro world/twilight zone where free speech isn't a thing. Coulda sworn that I'm allowed to communicate however the jesus-titty-fucking-cuntballs I want, wherever I want, and if the audience misinterprets what I'm saying, or can't or won't understand intent, that's their problem.
So faggot has lost it's heritage because you insist it has, but nigger hasn't because "no it hasn't." That seems reasonable. You asked, here it is. See definition 2. And this has fuck-all to do with free speech. No one has suggested you be legally mandated to not use words. It's just that using some words makes you an asshole, and this is beyond your control outside of choosing whether you want to use those words. Which is what free speech means.
Why do I find this saying hilarious? It just gives me this image of some redneck getting wood for the fire when suddenly a black guy jumps out of it. "Oh mah god! A nigger!"
It hasn't lost anything because I insist it has. Not even sure what you mean by heritage, to be honest. All I'm saying is that its definition has changed, many times, over many lifetimes, throughout many places. And the only reason I'm saying that, is because it's true. Haha, yeah, because going from "Extremely disparaging and offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc." to "Extremely disparaging and offensive. a person of black/dark-skinned race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc." is EXACTLY the same as faggot meaning a meatball, an old woman, a bundle of sticks, a cigarette, a pejorative for homosexuals, and asshole Harley riders. I am in awe of your flawless reasoning. Oh so I'm legally allowed to say what I want, but using certain words -- regardless of context or intent because FUCK taking the time to think -- automatically makes an asshole. I thought we don't live in a vacuum...?
Sentences in this thread that are hilarious taken out of context. Slurs are bad. Cunts are delicious.
Using a slur is always a moral failing. You're marginalizing any legitimate grievance you have with the other person, by making their skin color/gender/whatever an issue. Does it ever piss you off when people from another racial/religious/sexual orientation/etc. group make a racial/gender/etc. issue out of something that isn't? That's exactly what you're doing if you say something like, "A couple of niggers just stole my car!" That said, I don't think "cunt" is a slur. I don't use the word because it's likely to be taken that way, but I don't find it offensive myself. Asshole and bitch are the masculine/feminine forms of the same word, and the superlatives are cocksucker (no longer a slur for gay men) and cunt. Should we have a gender distinction here? Probably not, but it is what it is for the time being.
The problem is...in your opinion cocksucker is no longer a gay slur. If you call the wrong homophobic person a cocksucker, he's not going to wait for you to explain your definition. He's going to become pissed off and likely punch you in the head. Slang words have different connotations and meanings to every individual. The easiest way to avoid any mistakes is to simply not escalate any conversation with name calling. Years ago, you never called anyone a son of a bitch unless you cleared your slate for the next few weeks you were fixin' to spend in the hospital.
Being neither black nor a woman, I feel my opinion is needed on the "cunt" vs. "nigger" debate. I don't think the argument that limiting the analogy to white women in America is closing our eyes to women's suffering abroad holds water. In fact, I think it obfuscates the discussion by confusing the context of language use. For example, can we all agree that we are talking about the words "cunt" and "nigger" and "goddamn' and "Jesus Christ" in regards to their meaning in English? Anybody have an opinion on what the closest phonetic analogs of these mean in French and how offensive they are? Why? Well, because obviously this debate began with certain preconceived notions about the context of use of these terms. This happened implicitly by none of us making the absurd argument I outlined above, and explicitly when several posters argued that the context of the word's use informs its meaning. I think, although I would welcome correction, that the presumed context was English-speaking communities in North America. I'm very sympathetic to the suffering and oppression of women in areas other than North America, but trotting their oppression out against Parker's point muddles the terms of the debate (which needs no more muddling). We aren't arguing over which word should be more offensive... Additionally, a woman can be offended by use of the word "cunt" to the same extent that a black person is offended by use of the term 'nigger." That doesn't really speak to the question we sought to answer, though. The point isn't that certain idiosyncratic sensibilities can result in certain people reacting really poorly, but that, on balance, society deems one of these words to be significantly more offensive than the other. At least, I was looking for a significant difference; I'd be willing to accept that the words are equally offensive, and in fact that is probably the strongest argument, but no one has made it yet. I find it interesting that so many TiB posters grew up in small, homogeneous communities and I wonder why so many posters prefaced their comments with that disclaimer, regardless of their view. Last, I understand being uncomfortable with the use of the word "nigger." I vividly remember reading Huckleberry Finn aloud in high school and the feelings that aroused in me. But I don't understand how that discomfort becomes so severe as to prevent intellectual engagement with the word. Maybe that fact should be an additional point in favor of "nigger" being more offensive. I know plenty of people who are offended by the use of the word "cunt," but I've never heard anyone claim that its offensiveness categorically overwhelmed them.
I will just say, literally every black woman I know; you call them a cunt you're getting cussed out. You call them a nigger or nigger bitch you're going to the hospital.
This so perfectly illustrates the difference. I cannot believe some of the horseshit I've read in this thread and that this is even being discussed. I also can't believe that some black folks in Memphis and possibly some other places let some white morons call them the N word. This is absolutely disgusting. I don't know one black person that would stand for this type of bullshit. I'm white, date a black girl, and have many black friends. If I said the n word I would no longer be friends with any of them at the very least. This shouldn't even be a debate, the fact that it is tells me that we have a long way to go and that we have a lot of people out of touch with reality and have little social consciousness or awareness. The historical experience of women and black people in the United States is not even comparable. For those of you white people who have become "desensitized" to the N word because of rap music should probably get some black friends and see how desensitized you are when you call them that or say it around them. It just might show you the power of words and give you a crash course in social consciousness and hopefully wake you the fuck up. You stupid cunts. I cannot stand it when white folks say the n word and think that it's alright because "they say it, so I can too" and that it's somehow not offensive anymore. I'm disappointed that we're even having this debate on TiB.
The thing that shocks me the most about this thread is discovering that Parker is actually black. Who knew? Also, this, just because:
Anyone else have a black friend who thinks it's really fucking hilarious to shout "nigger!" in a crowded area and then stare at you with a shocked and hurt expression? Fuck you, Marcus.