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You can't take our Freedom! Will Scotland Stay or go?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AFHokie, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. AFHokie

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    Upcoming vote for Scottish Independance

    Scotland votes next week whether to stay or go and polls are showing the vote is split close to 50/50 stay/go. If leaving wins the vote, far reaching implications affecting British politics, UK oil revenue, UK and EU economics, and a host of other issues that in addition to England and Scotland, will also to an extent affect Europe and the world.

    FOCUS: Which side do you think will win and what do you think will happen?

    ALT FOCUS: Other countries have regions with a well known secessionist movement such as Quebec. What are some others? Are they legitimate or just a few crackpots?
     
  2. Juice

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    One that I always thought was interesting was breaking off northern California and southern Oregon and merging into a new state called Jefferson. The main argument being that the culture in the northern part of the state is vastly different than SoCal. Its not a serious one, and the US Federal Government has ways of specifically preventing a secession that have been in place since the Civil War.

    As for Scotland, I dont know enough about the facts of the situation nor the inter-workings of the UK-Great Britain-England/Scotland/Ireland/Wales etc. relationships operate to make a judgement on it, but its interesting to read about nonetheless.

    Warning: No political shit-throwing.

    Bump.
     
  3. JWags

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    Two of coworkers are British, so I got a pretty good rundown of a lot of the key issues over lunch the other day. I think a lot of the issues that plagued Quebec's push for independence would affect Scotland. Currency, infrastructure, starting essentially a new economy without the support of the UK. I read that many of the large British banks that do business in Scotland would pull out if the vote passed, making things VERY difficult.

    There is plenty at stake for the rest of the UK too. Scotland has offshore oil reserves, David Cameron wouldn't likely survive this sort of movement as PM, and, most importantly, they would no longer get to claim the Loch Ness Monster.

    Interesting stuff overall...
     
  4. Crown Royal

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    If they separate, Celtic fans will now look like the loyalist assholes while Ranger fans will now be backstabbing assholes.
     

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  5. toddamus

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    Yea, I think you may have that backwards. If you're using words associated with the Troubles, the loyalist were the English supporters and the Nationalist were the separatists. In this case, judging from the Rangers flag with the Queen on it, they are the Loyalists in this case.
     
  6. Crown Royal

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    Like I said, if they separate it will be the other way around.
     
  7. ghettoastronaut

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    1. Belgium, Catalonia, Basque, Galicia, Corsica, Brittany, Haute-Savoie, Bavaria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Kurdistan, Sicily, Sardinia, Veneto, Tyrol, Frisia... well, you get the picture. Eventually you begin to realize that movements to make your own country because of how different and special you are is not actually different or special at all. I think that, especially regarding Quebec, a lot of it comes from the narcissism of small differences. Yes, they speak a weird version of French, but ultimately they aren't all that different from other parts of the country, politically or culturally.

    2. It's not really an either/or question. Quebec separatism has more support than just a few crackpots, but at the same time, whenever politicians in a position of power actually start talking about a referendum, their support seems to magically disappear. And it's unfortunate, because the vision English Canada has of Quebec and Quebecers comes the pettiest and most childish of their society (for proof of this, consider that Quebecer Members of Parliament complained that there were too few Quebec flags at the Olympic village - in 1998). I think the serious issues of actually separating - creating a new currency, First Nations land claims, having a self-sustaining economy and a provincial government that can finance its operations independently - simply haven't been thought through. And I don't think separatists realize the amount of federal money being spent on Quebec for language and cultural preservation, or the amount of federal contracts tendered in Quebec just to keep jobs there. Which all takes place in addition to transfer payments. As another quick example: Montreal was Canada's largest city and economic capital up until the 1970s, until it was taken over by Toronto. Part of the reason for this shift was that political instability from separatism resulted in large corporations and banks moving their head offices down the road to Toronto. And yet somehow separatists incongruously claim that full separation will result in economic growth and tons of foreign investment flowing in.
     
  8. Crown Royal

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    Separatism for Quebec would be an economic disaster if they cut ties with Canada. Separatists suffer from Special Snowflake Syndrome where they aren't oppressed by invading English Stormtroopers, but basically feel they're unique enough that they should could literally break up the country. Fortunetly they are a minority even in Quebec so it's best just to treat them like Jehova's Witnesses when you're in bed and hung over.

    Somebody even made a draft to break up California recently. Eventually we will have our own nation and then we can all be The Independant Repulic Of Ourselves. And the bitching would finally fade like a blissful evening summer wind...
     
  9. Nettdata

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    I'm not sure it's a case of their existing support disappearing or if it's the fact that everyone else thinks "the crackpots are getting some foothold" and step up to add their voices, which drown out that support.

    In the end, they may be able to have their separate culture, but they're NEVER going to be able to separate from a financial, governmental, resources, etc., position. If they want to separate, and are basically shown the door, they will not survive on their own. It's a case of "be careful what you ask for".

    Of course, they want to separate, but still have full access to the government purse and services.

    Good luck with that.
     
  10. Kampf Trinker

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    The Texans have been rumbling about independence ever since we annexed them in the 1840s. Those wanting independence tend to be very far right and think every problem in the state is caused by outside forces, in particular liberal 'communists/lunatics'. Rick Perry even thought there was some kind of cute arrangement Texas had with the Union that would allow them to leave whenever they wanted.

    It's definitely part of that unique snowflake syndrome with people thinking Texan culture flourishes in a way that makes them dramatically different from other Americans, while in reality they're basically the same as other states in the bible belt.
     
  11. Omegaham

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    Say what you want, but if North Dakota were to secede, they would have the third largest number of nukes in the world and a large amount of oil to boot. Of course, they'd also starve to death, but they'd probably be able to extort some food out of everyone else with the nukes.
     
  12. JWags

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    Speaking of Quebec, I had no idea just how French it really is. I figured it was like Latinos in the Southwest, but I had a coworker who worked in Quebec City when he used to be a consultant and said working there was like being in Paris, language wise, but people were much nicer. Then I started reading into it and learned how that was part of the issue with the Nordiques before they moved. None French-Canadian players didn't like playing there cause of the language gap. Made the whole separatism argument make a bit more sense, but still nonsensical.
     
  13. ghettoastronaut

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  14. CanisDirus

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    #14 CanisDirus, Sep 15, 2014
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  15. scootah

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    Quebois French is to Parisian French, what honey boo boo is to Home Counties English.
     
  16. The Village Idiot

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    If Scotland votes for Independence, then I suggest we level that ugly ass Parliament building they have. Of course, I'd suggest we make sure that no one is in the building, but Jesus, I have no idea what those people were thinking when they built that piece of shit.
     
  17. JWags

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    You fucking jackals. My point was that its French dominant everywhere and English is in the minority, not that they speak the same dialect. And also never missing an opportunity to dig at Parisians for being dickheads.
     
  18. xrayvision

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    I'm not too well-versed on the subject of Scottish independence. In general, I understand why a country would want to be independent from another for freedom purposes, especially if the ruling country is oppressive to the other. I have not heard much about Scottish oppression or anything else.

    So I guess what I'm wondering in this situation is if anyone could fill me in on the various politics of why they want to actually break from the United Kingdom. It seems to me like the country will fail miserably if they do.

    I've done a fair but of reading on the history but nothing seems too decisive to me.
     
  19. TJMax

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    Focus: I don't know enough about the political situation to predict which way the vote will go, but I'm pulling for Scotland leaving (though they'd be staying in the Commonwealth, right?).

    Alt-focus: I hope this doesn't count as political shit throwing, but since Juice didn't flat out say USAian secession is off limits, and I'm not the first one to bring up Texas...

    Actually, just in case I've already made some of you cringe, I'll spoiler my alt-focus:
    The U.S. is the civic equivalent of a married couple staying together "for the kids", instead of getting divorced and remaining best friends. Assuming any of the three following groups are right and the other two wrong:
    1) Economic left
    2) Social right
    3) Libertarians

    ...It's still wrong for that group to force the right way on three hundred million other people. We are not our government; 'Murica as we know it can continue to thrive under multiple sovereigns. But, as long group #2 is the public face of secession, and then only to shore up their voter base in the existing system (ie, Rick Perry), oops I'm throwing political shit now aren't I? (gets out scooper)

    I'll also put my reasons for rooting for Scottish independence in here, since it's an opinion and I don't want to get the thread locked: More small governments/compartmentalization is better than a single point of failure.
     
  20. Nettdata

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    When I was in Scotland a few years ago, I couldn't believe the rampant dislike of Britain and what "they've" done to Scotland.

    My impression was that Thatcher used Scotland as a testbed for a bunch of social and economical reforms to see if they'd work in Britain. It sounded like most of them failed and caused Scotland a whole bunch of problems that they're still trying to dig out from under.

    I have no idea what those programs were or the exact problems that came about as a result, but there was a TON of "tourist education" about how Scotland was NOT Britain and how they hated to be associated with them.