Of course a woman leering at a guy is different. For one: sexual violence is disproportionately male on female. Perhaps a better analogy than the bank account thing would be men in prison. Imagine if you were on your third day in prison, and you're just in the cafeteria, and you're getting leered at by a bunch of dudes (your pants are slipping a little, and you've got a nice ass). Now, they might just be appreciating you sweet white ass. And they haven't done anything. But the context can definitely make a glance that lingers too long entirely unsettling. That's how it feels to some women to be stared at. Additionally, men rarely if ever have to worry about not being taken seriously based on their appearance. Women, especially professional ones, are constantly reduced to what they look like, and when guys blatantly ogle them, it suggests those dynamics. Again, there's nothing wrong with a look, but let's not pretend that this board is so very emotionally advanced that the mere notion of underlying sexism is lunacy.
Here's where I think this conversation goes awry - you say things like "empathy isn't a strong suit," and refer to "the male nature," and men buy into that and it perpetuates itself. It's not male nature, it's ignorance. It's your second sentence that's the key here - equating sexuality with danger. Men, for the most part, don't live that way because they don't have to. They don't understand it because they're not aware of it. Men don't experience the discrimination or the condescension, the pressure or the fear. And if the average male never has a woman sit him down and explain to him what it's like to be a woman with a voluptuous body in a heat wave, trying to decide what she can wear that won't a)look pornographic or b)attract a ton of unwanted attention, if he never has anyone explain to him how often a woman feels threatened or endangered, if no one points out to him that he can walk down the street and no one will know if he has a tiny cock or a huge one, and if they can see an outline they're not going to comment on it or look visibly repulsed that their "grower" is the size of a barely ripened grape - if none of those things ever happen, then the average man remains ignorant. Not "without empathy," but ignorant. And if he's ignorant, he's going to do ignorant shit. Like stare at your tits, and tell you that you shouldn't have put them on display for him if you didn't want him to dribble his drool down your dress.
Well, yes, exactly. But the last time I suggested that men were ignorant to what it's like to be a woman, shit got NUTS over that word choice. So, as long as you're saying it...
Or, more accurately, imagine that I walk into a public place, log into my online banking using a projector to put it up on a wall, and then get butthurt when a woman looks at it. Kubla's analogy is spot on. Somewhere between the feminist bullshit and the chauvinistic smartassery, there's a gray area that hasn't been found in time to save a poor, innocent train from being wrecked like Lily Thai's ass (her only lesbian anal scene, actually). Not every debate has to be done to a point that would put Senators to sleep, guys.
Volumes have been written, but this really isn't that complicated, and I think most people with half a brain "get it". If you are a woman and make the choice to show cleavage, you are consciously signalling potential sexual availability (sweater puppies are a different story). You might not actually be available, you might just want a self-esteem boost, or to be cool to the nice IT guys at the office, but that is the signal you are sending. You know you are doing this, and that men can't help but respond is the very point of the exercise in the first place. If you explode in self-righteous wrath because some poor schmuck that don't appeal to you merely caught a glance, you're an asshole. You put a big sign out front saying "Now taking auditions!", then spat in the face of the nervous applicant who took a chance and clumsily knocked on your door. If he didn't measure up, or you aren't really looking, that is fine, just be cool about it. He and everyone like him are gonna have to keep knocking on doors after you, if the human race is to survive. Somewhere out there there is a woman who want just this guy to knock on her door, so don't fuck it up for your sisters by confusing him into thinking that taking a shot is somehow an affront to all womankind. Conversely, if you are a guy eye-fucking a lone woman on the subway for 20 minutes, winking and gesturing towards your cock while ignoring her growing discomfort, you are an asshole. The sign said "Taking Auditions", not "Guaranteed Casting, None Rejected". She didn't respond to you, tough luck, try again next time. Don't be a dick and act like you were entitled to something. She didn't "lead you on", what you are offering wasn't what she was in the market for. All you get is a potential shot, and a faint one at that. Those are the rules, you knew that, so don't fuck it up for the rest of us. If women have to start wearing burqas to be left alone, all of our lives will suck more. Play by the rules, be honest with yourself, be honest with others, and be cool. Then we'll be fine.
Ok, no. Look. The fact that you think an appropriate analogy here is one in which the subject (victim) is explicitly broadcasting their assets (pun!) demonstrates an incredible lack of either awareness of, or empathy for, your fellow human beings. Shockingly, women do not dress exclusively with men in mind *nor should they be expected to*. Really, guys, I have a penis, I can vouch for this not being that hard to get: You are not a bad person for liking breasts. You *are* a bad person for acting as though this is them damned womens' fault for tempting you, those damned succubi, and why don't they just understand that? Edit: Dude, ignoring the fact that your post was written with the stated assumption that "women dress how they do purely to demonstrate potential sexual availability, and men bear absolutely no burden of moral agency in this matter, cause, you know, evolution and stuff", you do realize that "Playing by the rules" and "being cool" are essentially just euphemisms for "preserve the status quo", right? Unfortunately for everyone who isn't white and male, though, just by the magic of mathematics, it's pretty easy to show that even in a perfectly egalitarian society, minorities suffer disproportionately more discrimination, and the status quo therefore *disempowers them*. "Playing by the rules" works great if you're a dude checking out some girl's rack. Less so if you're the girl who doesn't want the attention.
Cleavage? Meh, I'm a leg guy. You can have a chest like a 13-year-old boy and I won't even notice. Hell, I once told an ex, to the horror of my friends, that she should get a breast reduction because she'd have back problems later.
Look, I am well aware that women do not dress exclusively with men in mind. What I don't have empathy for is women who know they're putting out a signal and whine that men are responding to it, and men who are too ignorant or selfish to care that there's a line between appreciating what's on display and continuing that attention to a blatant disregard for some level of respect and decency. It's really simple. If you dress in a manner that leaves your assets highly exposed and get upset at the attention you receive, fuck you. If you stare at a woman whether her assets are provocatively displayed or not, fuck you. If you can't understand these two simple concepts because you want to play Harvard debate team or wave your agenda in the rest of our faces, fuck you too. And with that, I'll let you all get back to playing "extreme black and white views" Volume 1874, stay tuned for Volume 1875 coming out next week in the upcoming trainwreck of a thread about affirmative action.
I wear booty shorts and knee socks 8 months out of the year. I have a round ass. It's a bubble butt. It's an ass I work hard for. (Except this past month, fucking back injury and head cold. Ugh.) Anyway... I KNOW that when I wear those clothes I'm going to get looks, or comments, or both. Look if you like. Comment if you want. I'll generally ignore either way. Just don't invade my personal space. Like at all. Don't be creepy. Creepy is anything that makes me feel like I need to pepper spray your ass. edit: I don't have any boobs, so the whole cleavage debate is irrelevant to me.
Well, since the children still don't comprehend, some women dress with fashion in mind. We dress for other women. I rarely go shopping and think "OMG, the GUYS will love this!!" In fact, I never do this, unless I am buying lingerie. So the fucking point is, you don't have any RIGHT to stare, it isn't a "HEY, LOOK AT ME!" in most scenarios. Scoop neck tops look great on me, but I am supposed to accept that I am putting a signal out there? Because the only thing I think of is how I perceive myself and how I may be perceived professionally, NOT how everything with a penis is going to read this as a sign of my desire for attention. Sure, I still don't think a guy glancing is all that horrible, but the notion that I WANT you to is fucking retarded.
Meh - maybe it's because I live in a cold climate (Chicago) but bare-breasts of any kind (basically any cleavage) is completely rare in a corporate office. It's just completely inappropriate and every male (and probably female) on the floor is going to ogle your bare breasts. The only people that really have this problem in the office are the girls with inordinately large chests. That's because they decide/ choose to wear the same things that small-chested girls wear --- with dire results. A normal/ smaller chested girl can wear something with a lower neckline, even a tank top on occasion, and she'll just seem fun and fashionable. HOWEVER, a large-chested girl, feeling she has the same "rights" as the average/ small chested girls (though this has nothing to do with rights) --- also wears low-cut shirts, blouses, and occasionally tank-tops. This, however, has dire consequences. Firstly, a greater surface area of her tits are exposed (directly proportional to the breast-waist differential). This is simple geometry. A sphere is going to have more side boob and cleavage exposed than a relatively gradual hill. Also the mere novelty alone will attract attention. It's like seeing a 7 foot tall man walking down the street. Your eyes are drawn to this peculiarity. Add to the fact that we are talking about awesome titties. Back to the point, the large chested girl feels she has the right to wear the same shirts and clothing as any other girl in the office. In practice, she can wear whatever she wants, however, she can't wear many low neckline shirts without attracting a hell of a lot of attention. So, I'm not entirely sure why a huge-chested girl would wear a tank top to the office, putting her wondrous naked tits on display, and then spend the entire day fidgeting and trying to pull her top up. Surely she has a mirror that she can observe herself with in the morning? I mean, is it to impress other women? Appear fashion forward and fun, despite how much her boobs are on display? Or is to get a rise out of some hot guy, or try to get that promotion? Otherwise it's not that hard to cover your cleavage. I see dozens of girls do it every day and still look "fashionable" and "hip." Girls that display their tits WANT to display their tits. Maybe you ladies can tell us why you do it and get this whole thing cleared up. Otherwise, I'm all for the big-breasted buxom babe to wear the tank top to the office. But, she's going to get some stares from the men.
If your clothes fit, there isn't a whole lot to adjust. In my case, I wear shirts that aren't terribly low to work. When it is hot, I live in tank tops. BECAUSE IT IS HOT. Not because I want to display the goods.
Of course what I say is belligerent. That's why I named myself captainjackass. Back to the topic at hand, guess what, when it's summer time, I get fucking hot, too. You don't see me coming into the office shirtless. If I did, women (and men) would stare, and then I'd glare at them and say "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU LOOKING AT, HUH? ENJOYING THE VIEW?!!"
So staring is creepy, but taking a glance is normal. How is this something we didn't collectively know before this thread?
We did. But some Village Idiot thought it would be fun for us to attempt to convince each other that our creepiness wasn't really all that creepy, and that women think they don't want guys drooling on their bosoms, but they really do. And it's a good segue into the hilarity of rape jokes.
I'm just happy that during the summer months my job allows me to wear short sleeve button ups and polos. if only it would allow me to wear wife beaters. Or maybe shorts or even a speedo. But I don't want the ladies all staring at my junk. So I will just be hot. Sigh
I thought the thread was just designed to get the ladies to post pictures of their cleavage. Really sad it didn't work.