I'm not saying all of this because I think, a priori, that all kids need to be raised and disciplined in one particular way. I'd even agree that there can be a role for physical punishment. Let's review the facts: 1) Your children are, by your very admission, not turning out well 2) You were beaten, which may or may not be related to their current state and trajectory 3) You have beaten them, which may or may not be related to their current state and trajectory 4) Your response to this situation is to watch everything turn to shit and rue the fact you can't beat them The thing is, you are going to foot the bill for them crashing in your house and sponging off of your PSN in 5 years. May I humbly suggest that, since you are unwilling to suffer the legal consequences of continuing to beat them and unwilling to suffer the consequences of them turning out to be deadbeats, you find another solution to the problem and do something to remedy the situation?
I'm sorry, are people disagreeing with you on the topic that you asked them to discuss? I'm willing to concede that beatings/spankings/whatever may have their place with certain kids - I'm no parent or child psychologist, what do I know. I do know, however, that strict, effective parenting is possible with no physical punishment in a lot of cases. I think your implication that it's either physical discipline or flowery "hey, please don't do that, okay honey bunches?" is a little too simplistic. One of my best friends growing up was scared shitless of his dad when he got mad, even though he never once beat him. He was just an intense dude. I remember in high school, I had a French teacher who we walked all over. Then, in the next block, we had a chemistry teacher who NOBODY fucked with. Like, the shittiest kids in school wouldn't disrupt Mr. Hornby's class. Obviously neither teacher was able to hit us, and yet one was able to consistently maintain complete control over 30 teenagers.
I don't have kids, and I was rarely spanked as a child. I think I turned out how I turned out and beatings had little to do with it. I had a healthy respect for my parents because of who they were and how they treated me, and it had little to do with fear of being spanked. I recall maybe a half dozen times that I was spanked by my parents. My grandmother, whom I disliked as I child, would spank us for minor things that annoyed her or interfered with the activities of the adults. That sort of thing spoiled our relationship to this day, because of the respect differential. As a child, I was treated like a nuisance and spanked as an emotional response. It certainly shaped my perceptions of her and continues to this day. As such, I'm not someone who thinks it's an all-or-nothing scenario. Sometimes, it's appropriate and sometimes it's just a way for the parent to vent, which doesn't help the child at all. I do think that corporal punishment should have strict rules. I was never hit anywhere but on the ass, never with anything other than a hand, belt or a switch (tiny branch) and my parents didn't say a damned word when they did it. I knew how long I was going to be spanked and often, at what time.
She was beaten for downloading music off of the internet. So, you have a better suggestion, right? An iron-clad one because you have kids of your own and they are such shining examples of virtue and productivity, right?! What would you do?! Honestly?! He/they will NOT live in my house, as I have told them for years now. But when they are panhandling outside on the curb (and/or trying to sponge off of my PSN through their hover-smartphones) and you try to blame me for their terrible upbringing and lack of discipline, I will probably point out that YOU said I shouldn't whip them/spank them/beat them and should try to reason with them because they are rationally thinking human beings that don't have raging hormones and a pathological need to be right all the fucking time! I sincerely implore you all honestly: if you think you have a better way, I'd love to hear it! I'll try to find a way to show you the progress that he has made so far. *afterthought* I used to be one of those weird, crunchy, pain in the ass moms who didn't even want her little snowflake pointing a fake gun in someone else's direction. It's a fucking joke. That didn't work either. And for the record - I bet that most of you, if not all, arguing against corporal punishment are 30 or younger.
Whoa. Well, dismissing for a moment your insistence on viewing this incident in the most uncharitable light possible, I would take your bet regarding her recidivism. She was downloading music illegally...I can almost guarantee you she's done it at least once since then. Not to throw around personal anecdata in place of proof or anything, but I've repeatedly engaged in behavior I was spanked for growing up. And it's downloading music. Short of a million-dollar fine from the RIAA, there's not much you can do to disincentivize downloading illegal (but free!) material. Also, her Reddit thread seems to indicate the reason she recorded this video and not many others after it was because 1) She'd been assaulted by this fuckface so many times that it was a foregone conclusion it would happen again & she wanted tangible proof should she decide to pursue anything legally, and 2) her mother left the asswad shortly thereafter, taking the girl with her. I think this has less to do with her being "what you remember being like as a teenager" and more to do with her father being an unmitigated prick who enjoyed beating the shit out of his disabled daughter for minor infractions.
This is a very minor point, but it may bear some snowflake's weight of relevancy in things. The guy's a judge. His daughter was downloading music illegally, as a minor. Stop and think whose name the internet account is likely to be in. Now imagine the shitstorm if it got out that a judge is being prosecuted for music piracy. Probably a similar shitstorm as is going to happen because of the video, but that's another thing. All I'm saying is don't dismiss what she did out of hand as nothing. We don't know all the facts. I still maintain it was fucking assault though.
Meh. That's a pretty big incentive, comparatively speaking, in 2004 when they were suing people left and right for MILLIONS of dollars. Not saying it was right though... She not only had 12 years before that to gather tangible proof that "she'd been assaulted by this fuckface so many times..." but she's had nearly 7 years since then. Even if her mother'd left shortly thereafter then she'd still have no reason to release the tape now after all these years. It's not like he was suddenly in danger of getting custody back now. I have lost my temper and flown off the handle - he's almost a teenager. It doesn't mean I do it every day or every week or every month. It means shit happens and I'm sure nearly all of you have seen your parents so mad that their eyes go cross-eyed! It's not an international incident...
Maybe it's because I was never beaten. Maybe it's because I'm fucked in the head. But I am pretty certain that if anybody, including my parents (whom I love to death), beat me like that, I would probably end up killing them or come pretty damn close to it.
I dunno, it seems that my parents only got really mad at me when I did something wrong, and I was only spanked when I was too young to understand an explanation for why what I did was wrong. Reading for pleasure was generally seen as a good thing, although less so when it interfered with homework or chores. By your own admission, you have resorted to corporal punishment and/or beatings when your child has not behaved optimally. Despite this, by your own admission, things are not going optimally. Your proposed solution would be to beat him more, if those pesky laws about child abuse didn't get in the way? It doesn't seem to have worked out so far. By your own admission, you have just as much experience raising happy, healthy, responsible individuals as any of the childless people responding to this thread.
I'm sure some people get taken to the cleaners when they're caught illegally downloading music- I don't doubt that at all. It sucks and I disagree with it, but it is what it is. For now, downloading music illegally can cost you a fuckload of money. But this is your standard risk v. reward equation, isn't it? A teenager (someone who hasn't yet fully developed the part of their brain responsible for evaluating long-term consequences of behavior) looked at the likelihood of getting caught and the ease of filling her new iPod with free music...and decided to click "Download" immediately. I'm not going to defend or castigate her behavior, because her risk evaluation process is not mine to judge. Also...I might like my free version of Nikki Minaj's "Super Bass." As with most abused children, the road from "cowering victim" to "empowered victim" takes a while. I don't doubt it took her 16 years to work up enough courage to record him mid-beating. In fact, I'm astounded at her bravery! Had she gotten caught, I'm 100% positive her beating would've taken an even uglier turn and could've damaged her permanently. But here's the deal: I take it you didn't read the Reddit thread? She explained her decision-making process behind releasing the tape. Her father is harassing her by phone...even though he doesn't have custody and they no longer share a residence. She's angry that he continues to emotionally and verbally harass her. This might not be the most mature way of handling it, but it's not my place to judge how a victim chooses to respond to her attacker. From what she's said (and call me a soft-hearted fool, but I believe her), she knew to leave the camera on as soon as he entered the room. She didn't provoke him intentionally to elicit a response; she simply taped the expected outcome of her father getting angry. This is different from sometimes flying off the handle. Hell, I have been known to lose my shit entirely while nanny-ing. It happens. I'm human, you're human, and he's human. The difference is that my children (they're not really mine, but I spend more time with them than some of their parents do!) don't expect me to bug the fuck out every time they annoy me or even every time they make a major mistake. If all of those wee ones carried around pocket cameras and flipped them on when I got upset, they'd be recording quite a few muffled f-words but they couldn't reliably predict a freakout. And that's the difference. EDIT: I really cannot watch this video, but a commenter on Gawker kindly transcribed the entire video for those of us who choose not to view it. Does he really say "Turn over or I'll spank your fucking face"? If so...HOLY SHIT.
Wow. I read about that on the news today, but that is out and out abuse. That is not spanking, that is not discipline, that is abuse. You could see he was really putting his back into it. He wanted to hurt her. He didn't want to discipline her or teach her a lesson. I got spanked, with a belt by my dad once. I think I was about 9 or 10. 15 minutes later, my Dad was in my room, bawling his eyes out apologizing. He was beaten severely by his parents. My dad is an angry, paranoid, bundle of nerves who suffers from depression and anxiety (there are other factors in there, but the abuse by his parents is a major factor) I believe in smacking kids. But it has to be within reason. Smack on the hand when they're going to touch something hot. A quick swot on the backside when they're throwing a tantrum. Both fine. It needs to be accompanied with a conversation about what they did wrong and why. Yes you can't reason with a tantrum throwing 2 year old. But when they calm down, you explain what they did wrong, why it was wrong, and what they need to do to make it better. But I think smacking your kid for doing something like back chatting/hitting their sister/making a mess, doesn't teach the kid why what they did is wrong. They probably won't do it again, most likely because they are scared of the outcome. I read an interesting article by a guy who said the "problem" (I put problem in inverted commas because every generation feels the youth have a problem) with our children is that parents have been told, don't smack, but they haven't been given discipline alternatives. Laws have been passed making spanking illegal. Kids are encouraged to contact the police/child services if they are spanked (and kids can be vindictive little fucks.) But think about how dumb most people are. They were probably smacked as children, and lets face it, most parenting skills are learned from what our parents did/didn't do. If you can't smack your kid, what do you do?
You guys seem to be missing the point. I really don't WANT to spank my kids. Really. I derive NO pleasure. I would rather them (pretty much really the oldest one at this point) listen to me the first time. The barest couple of times that I was actually forced to spank him were awful and I don't want to do it again. Unfortunately I don't really don't have a choice, even though at this point, threats and conjuncture are all that seem to work (and the threats are baseless because I can't act on them, thanks). Not much these days works against bullying, peer pressure and teasing. It's me against the (middle school) world. My middle son is the mildest of them all. He stuffed a whole grocery bag full of Halloween candy to send to the troops. Good stuff too! Kit Kats and grape Nerds and Reese's peanut butter cups. He comes home and does his homework every day without being asked. A perfect angel. He is a whirling dervish when he gets mad though! Gets so mad he can hardly breathe. What should I do? He is in "therapy" and we while we don't tiptoe around him, we still don't want to beat his ass.... Do you all see a pattern with this or should I keep going?
I believe you. This guy is a sadistic fuck and I genuinely think he somewhat enjoys being able to take out his frustrations on his daughter's body. You just strike me as very overwhelmed and in desperate need of a partner who will pull his (or her) weight in the family unit. Do you genuinely want parenting advice from TiB? I'm being serious. I don't know if you're just looking to vent or if you're really looking for alternative solutions.
From what I understand, he bought her a car recently (like within the last few "abuse" less years/months) and was making car and insurance payments on it. He asked her to assist in such payments or return the car and suddenly she shows up with the 7 year old video tape. This sounds remarkably similar to the same crap my niece pulled on my parents when she didn't get her way and now my folks are without their beloved granddaughter with not much explanation why and barely a reason to show for it. The judge's daughter turned the camera on long before he entered the room - to the degree that I actually refreshed the video to make sure the shit didn't freeze up. While I don't deny that the guy was a total dick (feel free to jot that down) - I sincerely think the mom is using this 7 year old video tape as leverage to get more ali-money. Think about the worst thing your dad has ever done to you. Now imagine that it took you 7 YEARS to confront him about it....
Eh. I would never come here looking for answers but since some people around here seem to be full of them, I thought I would humor them....
If you can watch that video and think that's anything but assault, you're fucking crazy. End of story. Even if this was the first time it ever happened, when you stop beating your child and say, "Let me go get another belt"....come on... Then when her mom says just take one and it'll stop and then they keep beating her... If you think that's even close to responsible parenting there isn't much I can say that will influence you to have an open or positive outlook on child rearing. I just don't understand what the expected outcome is supposed to be when you go off on your kid like that? Are you hoping that after you beat the kid into submission they'll respond better to your commands? What happens when you've done nothing but set up a standard action that whenever they do something wrong you will have to beat them into submission again because that is your only effective way of communication with them? What happens when they are older and a regular spanking no longer delivers enough punishment for them to submit? Then you need to start using tools to make sure they can feel how strong the punishment is. The whole idea is just mind boggling.
Okay, dude, full stop. You seem to be under the impression that anyone that doesn't have kids shouldn't be able to argue? Or that somehow our arguments are invalid? I'm sorry, but that's a logical fallacy if I've ever heard one. Now, as for your dilemma. You're telling us that you, a fully grown adult, can't outsmart a fucking 13 year old? Really? You can't think of one creative way to effectively punish him that doesn't involve violence? Come on now, you're not dumb. I can tell you one right now. He's a teenager. Embarrass him. Pick him up every day after school and make sure to make a big show of it in front of his friends. Oh you work you say? Ask your boss to let you take your lunch break so you can pick him up. Take him with you and make him sit there and do his homework. Sell the Xbox, the playstation, all his distractions. His life is now school, homework, food and sleep. You don't think he'll get his shit together then? You seem to have posted expecting sympathy or validation. You should know by now that this is not the place for that.
She waited until she was out of the house and established on her own, and I'm guessing the situation of her little sister had something to do with the delay as well. She then waited until the eve of his re-election and torpedoed his career. Hell hath no fury like a woman beaten systematically with a belt. So you can go on and on about how beatings get you good results, but the result it got this judge was a divorce, a daughter who hates him, and a truly master stroke of revenge that has completely sunk his public reputation.
To put it bluntly: If you can't get your kids to stay in line without constant and severe spanking, give them up for adoption. You had your chance, and you fucking failed. Spoiled for length Spoiler Both my parents were subjected to severe corporal punishment. My mom's brothers were routinely busted in the mouth with my grandmother's fist, and her large rings. Picking a switch or getting the belt on the bare ass was a daily occurrence. I've been told of one incident wherein my uncle was arrested as a teen for some petty crime -when his dad came to pick him up, he went in the holding room and starting lighting into him, and the accompanying officer said, "Hey, you can't do that here. Take him home." You want to know how well decades of severe corporal punishment (read:abuse) worked out for that side of the family? - Two uncles who seem to be fairly well-adjusted...and were also the three youngest, who got off a bit more easy, because by the time they reached double digits in age, the oldest two were raising ten kids' worth of hell on their own -My mother, who is fucking insane -An uncle who was kicked out of boot camp for attitude, who has had roughly one DUI a year for as long as I can remember, lives on welfare because he can't afford a job (apparently, telling your boss to go fuck himself because you don't want to do as he says not only hurts your employment status, it makes it hard to get a good reference), and can't stop pounding whiskey long enough to let his bipolar meds work. -An uncle who has been in legal trouble since before he was old enough to know what a vagina is, and has spent less than 5 of the last 20 years outside of the custody of the State of Texas. On my dad's side of the family, it was paddles and belts, and the offending child stretched over the bed with another sibling sitting on their arms. I know my aunt is a fucking loon, but that's all I know about my dad's siblings, because they all moved halfway across the country as soon as they were able. I could cite all of this as supporting evidence in saying that any type of spanking is absolutely unconscionable, but I know a little better to than to make an outrageously unsupportable claim and try to call it fact. Instead, I'll say this: There's a use for spanking -not beating-. That said, using it as a crutch to demand perfect obedience and respect from a child doesn't work. There's a line between punishment and abuse, and once you cross it you risk long lasting emotional harm that can remain long after physical marks are gone. Children can be shits, as it happens this is part of the whole "child" thing. The thing is, an intelligent and balanced adult should have a few more resources at their disposal than "I'm going to whip your ass". Speaking specifically to that video, that judge is a sorry excuse for a man. That wasn't an adult punishing a child for a transgression, that was an enraged man violently beating a defenseless young woman. That is assault, pure and simple (legally battery, preemptive fuck you ballsack and VI). I have an idea about all of this. Let's change it up - make it so police can't arrest you for beating children in public. Let all these subhumans come out of the woodwork, gleeful that they don't have to turn up a stereo or rely on thick walls to cover the screams of their children, that they can and some humiliation to these so-called punishments. And then allow any willing bystander to beat these people within an inch of their lives. Hey, it's just punishment, right? Hell, we can go even further. Parents who leave their kids in the parking lot for hours? Drop em in the middle of the desert, no clothes, no food, no water. Say "Hey, we'll be back in a few hours." The white trash animals we all see dragging their barely-old-enough-to-walk children along on harness leashes? The ones who literally drag the kid on their stomach so they can keep their hands full on bags of new clothes and appliances and makeup? Throw some rope around their neck and tie it to a cop car. Tell em to keep walking behind the car, cause Officer has important stuff to do. Drive around and a speed they can barely keep up with for two hours, then floor it to the nearest donut shop. If they're still alive after, it's a simple as a "Sorry, but you wouldn't keep up, and Officer had to get the last raspberry filled. Maybe next time you should listen to Officer, huh?" But hey, we don't live in that perfect world, so hopefully one day we'll simply have harsher penalties. Or, and this is linking to another thing entirely- that whole US system where you get pretty much everything for free as soon as you pop out a kid? Take it the fuck away. We don't need to penalize people for having kids, but make it so people don't get rewarded for having kids. I really don't even know. All I know is that for someone who has an extensive fetish for spanking in a sexual tense, that video has me about as pissed as I've been all year.