The whole line of reasoning is incredibly specious, though. Sure, in a perfect world, color of skin does not equate to much of anything. This is not a perfect world, though, and statistically, if you are born black in this country, you are likely to be at an immediate and meaningful socioeconomic disadvantage compared to someone who is born white. It's ridiculous to suggest that every individual's outcomes are only a result of their personal choices, and aren't heavily influenced by their circumstances. edit: this isn't really a tangent, since it's part of the whole line of thinking that some are using in this thread. You can't just separate yourself from your circumstances.
Being a feminist is defined as advocating for equal rights for women. The idea behind "pushing a feminist viewpoint" is that if men acknowledge and understand male privilege more, they can help women overcome gender inequality. I would argue that everyone, myself included, could benefit from better understanding and acknowledging their privilege. Acknowledging privilege and power can also help foster empathy and understanding. You know, if the end goal is equality.
Holy fuck, did people actually not understand that gaming analogy? I swear the author says things which are directly contrary to what people have him saying. He's not saying that it is always easy to be a straight white male, or that anything about the game is easy per se. He's also not saying that it's necessarily more important than wealth or class or looks or what have you. He's also not saying that merit isn't a crucial element of success. If you don't understand all of that, please don't mention that particular analogy again because you're going to give me an aneurysm.
I was actually hoping to delve more into what exactly you consider equal rights to be. The reason I ask is because, in the Western world, women have the same rights men have. With that said, it then becomes the argument that women want equal privilege as men, which is why I ask, what is the end result you are looking for by pushing a feminist viewpoint that you deserve the same privilege you believe men have.
Yeah and people of color have the same rights on paper, too, but that doesn't mean that racism isn't still an enormous issue. I'm not going to write you a fucking paper about gender inequality or institutionalized racism. Google it. It's real.
In an attempt to completely piss everyone off, I'm going to use the phrase "female privilege." It exists, it just happens to be different from the kinds of privilege these discussions usually involve. A while back we had a thread about gay bullying and whether or not you would let your son wear dresses and act effeminately. There was talk about how being a sissy is seen as a bad thing but tomboys are no big deal. The difference is female privilege. People don't get upset that their son can cook, or sew, or is good with children even though those things are typically more associated with women. When people use the word effeminate, they're usually talking about the negative, shitty behavior we let girls/women get away with that we don't tolerate from men. Vanity, physical weakness, emotional weakness, bitchiness, that sort of thing. No one tells a woman that she's a shitty person because she doesn't have a good job. It's a lot harder for a drunk woman to get arrested than an equally drunk man. Have you seen the Carlos Hyde video? He probably said something really dickish, but the girl punched him in the head as he was walking away. And they were talking about charging him. That isn't how it goes down if they're both guys. And comparing women's rights to minority rights is fucking stupid for a bunch of reasons. Racial inequality basically boils down to socioeconomic status at this point. For historical reasons, race is correlated with socioeconomic state, which in turns leads to shitty schools, crime, etc. The fact that some people don't like black people isn't nearly as big a deal because the simple fact is that most of us don't like most of the rest of us, and we tend to pick the first rationalization for it we can. But gender doesn't correlate with socioeconomic status, so that doesn't work. Secondly, women aren't really a minority, are they? Yet somehow the only women's issue that ever comes up in elections is abortion, and we aren't going to settle that any time soon. The thing that most feminists (and the liberal side in a lot of these debates) miss is that the vast majority of the unwashed masses aren't graduate students at trendy liberal arts colleges. For people whose best job prospects involve back-breaking work, the traditional gender role where a man is expected to shoulder the load looks pretty good for the women.
It's so hard for me to take most of this at all seriously after seeing how people in the rest of the world live. There are so many more important issues that time and energy could be spent on than this. Women in America don't feel privileged enough? The women in the rest of the world outside of the west would kill you to take your spot. I've seen it; watching 12 year old girls carry babies, their babies, from the marriage they have no say in to a man who is old enough to reasonably be their grandfather has that effect on you. I could provide you with similar examples for issues like sexuality, choice of religion, free speech, race...you name it. It doesn't get much better than the way we have it and to me it appears that we, as a country, are seriously pulling apart. We aren't getting closer. Look at this debate as an example, it's the same people on one side of an issue talking at the same people on the other side of the issue. The extremes in opinion couldn't be more pronounced and that is the way it goes on every serious issue discussed here. Which, realistically, is probably a rather accurate representation of our larger society. We are becoming more polarized every day.
See this is the exact point I'm trying to make. You have the same RIGHTS on paper, but you believe people of a certain race/gender/etc have some sort of special privilege above those rights and you want to be equal to those privileges. I'm also not asking you to write a paper on gender equality, I just wanted to know what sort of equality you personally are looking to achieve by making everyone aware of the inequality you feel at the moment. Can I also point out that I'm trying to be civil and ask a question in as respectful of a manner as possible and the response of, "Just fucking Google it" doesn't exactly promote any kind of positive dialog.
I think Audrey Monroe had it right. Examples like the blog post Parker linked to, and others like it, are held up almost like a psychological defense mechanism to keep people from confronting the more fundamental and important questions that feminism poses.
Seriously? You did absolutely no reading whatsoever and decided to post here again? Jesus fucking Christ, dude. I can't tell whether you're a new breed of Internet ignoramus or if you're a troll of the dumbest degree. Listen, dipshit. It's not "female privilege" that tomboys are given a pass when effeminate boys are given massive amounts of shit. To a patriarchal society like THE ONE WE LIVE IN, being woman-like when you're a man is the very worst thing you can possibly be. Because, apparently, adopting woman-coded mannerisms and traits is highly undesireable. Whereas adopting male-coded mannerisms, interests, and traits is totally fine. Now, why is that? Is it because women have the privilege of being the preferred gender? Oh, wait, no. It is the exact opposite of that. And, spoiler alert, feminists HATE this shit. Little boys who want to cook and like pink and giggle and wear princess dresses are fiercely defended in feminist circles, because rigidly enforced gender roles and gendered activities for children are damaging and awful. Also, this bullshit about vanity/emotional weakness/bitchiness being negative female traits? Shut the fuck up. No one gives a woman shit about not having a good job? Ha! No wonder you can't grasp anything being said in this thread. I am truly not kidding when I say that you are too ignorant of these issues to actually contribute to a discussion. Please read. Not even because I want to have an actual discussion with you, because I kind of don't care, but because you should be embarrassed at how ignorant you are. I don't even post in a PUA forum without doing more research than you seem to be doing. EDIT: oh god, the stupid is killing me. "Traditional gender roles are better for women of lower socioeconomic status" ARE YOU READING THE SHIT YOUR FINGERS ARE TYPING RIGHT NOW
My view on feminism is have at it. As long as its not negatively impacting me, I don't give a shit. Go for it, make the world a better place (or even just for yourself if that's what you want). I don't personally have any cause I care about, but I understand it. It's things like affirmative action or any other forced equalizer that I take issue with. And this "privilege" topic? When you break it down individually it's meaningless; just like all single sample sizes. You're life is up to you. And yeah, some people get a head start, but tough shit. Worry about yourself and not some arbitrary advantage of someone else.
You know how I know you barely read what I wrote? For one, I specifically listed being able to cook as a "feminine" trait that isn't frowned upon in boys. I've never seen anyone seriously shit on a guy for being able to cook. The pink and dresses are only seen as negatives because they're tied to the other stuff. They're just symbolic. Otherwise they'd be pretty pointless things to get upset about. But please, do list a few positive feminine traits that are frowned upon in boys.
I have no clue if you act this way in real life, but if you do, know this for a fact- the Patriarchy has nothing to do with people seemingly marginalizing you or acting dismissive towards you. It's because you sound like a shrieking bitch. Shut up or provide something of substance. Educate or ignore. Stop name calling, grab your lady balls and put your money where your mouth is.
Ah great. If I write something earnest and thoughtful, Pinkcup is going to get on her PMScycle and ride me down, and if I write something abrasive and reductionist, Nom is going to lump me in with the rest of the mouth breathers. Nothin' left to do but post a picture of a puppy. Edit: and no, I'm not shrinking it, buy a bigger monitor you pleb.
Fuck everybody in this thread, including and especially me. Anybody that wants to talk about this, PM me and I'll be happy to talk about this for as long as you want, but clearly nobody is actually listening to anybody else, and it's actually making me sad as fuck. Which is exactly as lame as it sounds. Fuck this.