What the fuck? I'm pretty sure our society goes out of it's way to place women on a pedestal. Some of you Feminists need to come up for air. Beyond that, when did we turn in to such a society of weirdos? People can't walk down the same side of the street at night for fear of rape? Should we avert eye contact as well? Should we shout out ahead of us declaring our intentions to the women out ahead of us to put them more at ease? Seriously, where did we go so wrong? It sounds like the fucking wheels are coming off. As a white male, if I ever started to care about this touchy-feely nonsense regarding gender, sexuality, race, etc., I would feel as though I am being singled out as the catalysts to everyone else's problems.
Let's assume that all people have blind spots when it comes to this stuff -- women don't know what's it like to be men, black people don't know what it's like to be white, cis people don't know what it's like to be trans, and vice versa. Is it at least possible that considering the amount of power concentrated in the hands of white men, that those who aren't in that group tend to suffer a little bit more extremely, through no fault of the people in power themselves? (In before "The President is black). Like, ok, let's take this board as an example. Most of this board is men, right? Even though we're all great guys, and are open-minded almost to a fault, that still comes across: the vast majority of the pictures in the weekend drunk thread are women from straight porn, "female-related" issues are generally contained to one thread, 80-90% of the viewpoints in any particular thread are from men, that kind of thing. None of that is a vestige of evil, or anything, just an ordinary function of having a massive gender imbalance. Can you guys at least see how it makes it less likely for a woman to want to join the board? And how most of those that do are encouraged to hold certain viewpoints? This board is a great example of how perfectly wonderful people (the Tibbers), can benefit from an institutional structure that seems almost invisible if you're a part of it (everyone loves boobies, right?). It's nobody's fault, but it does have a very real impact.
If you're at all interested in feminist concepts but you don't like a lot of the jargon and apparent self-righteousness that tends to colour debates on the net, I can't recommend Sinfest highly enough. It's mostly a gag strip with devils, mushrooms, porn, poetry, and glorious satire, but the latest plotline revolves around feminism and presents it in an accessible sort of way. Very clever stuff. Oh right, link. Start here and enjoy.
Now I want you to repeat this example, except the man has dark skin. Oh wait! Suddenly you're racist as fuck! (yes, I know, I was beaten to it) I'm not wandering around any dark alleys breathing down anybody's neck, but at the same time, I refuse to accept responsibility for your unfounded fear of me.
Haha le epic meme! See dude, 'cisgender' is a thing because transgender is a thing, and you need non-pejorative words to differentiate if you actually want to discuss issues that affect the community. It's the same reason the word "heterosexual" exists. Imagine if I said "There's gay people and there's straight people," to which you said: "Straight people? You mean normal people? Hahaha!" See how that's homophobic and fucked up? Yeah.
No one is trying to say that all men are rapists. No one is arguing that you are responsible for the fear that women feel. No one is saying you're an asshole if you don't cross the street. That isn't the point. Just, for one second, try to put yourself in a woman's shoes, and accept that a woman might feel scared or threatened or vulnerable walking alone at night. And try to do it without invalidating the female experience by saying that women are stupid or unreasonable for feeling fear.
Well, try and put yourself in my shoes as a dark-skinned guy who's tired of people crossing the street to avoid me. Thanks.
I agree, that's fucked up. Racism is still a huge issue in our society. We could all use some walking in other shoes. I, personally, am wary of everyone I encounter at night and try not to discriminate because, last I checked, white guys are perfectly capable of rape, too.
Let me preface by saying: I get that. I get that women feel vulnerable walking alone at night. Still, here is the problem that I am seeing: "No one is trying to say all men are rapists." Yet, reading this thread, it really seems like the thought process of women is "There is a man. There is a very good chance he intends to rape me." If I am that man, should I not be offended by the fact that I am being labeled a potential rapist for merely existing in the same place as a woman? There is honestly nothing worse (to me) than being called (or thought of as) a rapist, so the fact that I am being labeled as one does bother me, as it bothers most normal men. "No one is arguing that you are responsible for the fear that women feel." This is actually exactly what most feminists are arguing. There is a real 'if you're not with us, you're against us' mentality, and that if we're not actively going out of our way to make women feel safe, we are responsible, in some small way, for contributing to the culture that makes women fearful. Again, I totally understand that women who are walking alone at night might feel some fear and uneasiness. I get that. I worry about my wife walking to her car in the parking lot on her way home from work. I do get the fear, I acknowledge it and do my best to make people feel safer around me. That said, the problem is the disconnect between what you want from men, and what that implies about men. "Be understanding of the fact that we view all men, you included, as potential rapists. Wait, why does that bother you?"
Male posts: "It just really sucks that everyone thinks I could be a rapist : ( : ( : ( " Female posts: "It just really sucks that I have to live in fear of being raped : ( : ( : ( " I'm sorry, I really hate creating a hierarchy out of tragedy, but there is a very clear hierarchy of tragedy there. And, p.s they're BOTH really stupid things to have to deal with and the fact that guys do have to consider that mindset is also a feminist issue along with that female mindset. Because if all of the goals of feminism were magically accomplished in one day, that would completely eradicate that male issue too. So, while a feminist might not particularly actively feel bad for you for having to deal with that reality, they're also actively working to ease that burden for you as part of that whole issue. Like Dixie complaining about paternity leave? You realize that paternity leave not being accepted is because of the Big Bad Patriarchy too, right? Look, I know that there are actually people out there who really do act like/believe in the same things as the Feminist Boogeyman that continues to be held up as the one sole thing that feminism is and always has been and always will be, but these conversations frustrate me because they just regurgitate what other angry men have told them about feminism or cherry-pick from the most radical feminist literature there is to try and paint a gigantic, complicated, messy idea as one simple, automatically negative thing. There are many feminists that wouldn't consider me a feminist because I love fashion and porn and kinky sex. And I don't actually think that the kind of feminists everyone only thinks about are feminist because I consider their not being accepting of women being housewives or strippers (among other things) just as sexist and oppressive as said Big Bad Patriarchy. I have had much more heated, passionate debates about feminism with these other kind of women than with someone who thinks feminist=ugly hairy dyke (and then we made out, because duh).* I always love the stereotype of feminists being humorless prudes who hate sex. Across the board of pretty much everyone I know, the more they consider themselves a feminist, the more they're having completely freaky slutty exciting sex lives. Seriously, if you actually stop and think about it for more than a half a second, do you honestly think that it would be so fine for women to be slutty/into sex and or porn and strip clubs and sex toys and kink to be so mainstream nowadays if it weren't for feminism? (Except that it's not really okay to be slutty yet but that's way too long of a tangent.) Anyway, the point of all of this is to say that whenever a man is so knee-jerk violently against feminism (real, actual feminism - like how the majority of it exists in reality, not some caricature Rush Limbaugh drew on his diner placemat) - especially when it's an otherwise perfectly decent man - is just so mind-boggingly simple-minded I can barely take it. Like if you don't realize how beneficial feminism is to men too, then I don't get it. (Not like being a "feminist ally" for the sake of it being beneficial to women alone is such a crazy concept.) I don't give a shit if you're not actively participating in feminism - just like I'll believe you if you like calling yourself a Democrat or Republican yet never vote or do anything political - and I don't think that 7/8 of that guy's list is necessary or even a good idea, but man, if there could ever be one conversation about feminism where males are present and a girl says something like "Wow, you know what sucks sometimes? That I don't think I've ever felt 100% safe when I'm in public." and it's met with something other than at least one of the guys responds with something along the lines of SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GET OVER IT YOU FUCKING HARPEE WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY NEEDS. That would be lovely. I think that's really all I care about when it comes to "being an ally." And for those of you who only care about this aspect of it, I would ABSOLUTELY invite Nom, Cowbell, and AlmostGaunt into my vagina. *Not a joke. SEE WHAT YOU'RE MISSING?
At no point was I implying that women need to 'get over it,' and I certainly wouldn't label my post as "knee-jerk violently against feminism," especially considering I went out of my way to say "I understand the fear women feel," and "I do my best to make people feel safe around me," (and apologies Audrey if your post wasn't directed at me). I was merely pointing out the reason most men are bothered when this discussion comes up; because it is impossible to have this discussion without saying (or at the very least heavily implying) that all men are potential rapists and that all men are to blame. Are there asshole misogynist men? Rapists? Of course, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy being associated with them or labeled as potentially being one simply because I share the same XY Chromosome as other rapists. It is just a bit hypocritical to say "consider our feelings," while not considering the thoughts and feelings of those you're trying to talk with. You want a reasonable discussion, and that is fine, but you're doing exactly what you're seemingly upset with others for doing; you're outright dismissing the other side when they rationally try to express how they feel. In this case, you're outright dismissing men saying "it really sucks to be labeled as a potential rapist," while saying "don't you dare dismiss women's feelings of fear!" Discussions have to work both ways. The sad part is I think we're (myself and Audrey) actually on the same side on this argument, I am just trying to explain how men feel about this without being an asshole about it, but apparently that is impossible. I have a wife and a daughter; my wife makes significantly more money (and probably less than her male coworkers, despite being smarter and a better worker), and I constantly worry about what kind of world my daughter will grow up in, and I want her to grow up to be as strong and smart as her mom. While I don't consider myself part of the 'feminist movement," I do believe women deserve equal rights, pay, fair treatment, etc., and I acknowledge that we live in a paternal society. Hell, I catch shit from a lot of people for 'letting my wife make the money,' which is just more bullshit paternal society thinking. So again, I get it, but none of that changes the fact that the entire discussion labels me and every other person with an XY Chromosome as a potential rapist and/or misogynist, and I (and every other normal man I know) finds that at least a little upsetting.
I think what Audrey is trying to say is that it isn't about YOU. You're trying to make personal something that isn't personal at all. You read "There is a man. There is a very good chance he intends to rape me." We mean "There is a man. He probably isn't a threat, but in case he is, I am going to do everything I can to ameliorate that threat." We aren't afraid of the specific person, we are afraid of the threat of rape. I think you need to try and see the difference between "I am afraid of being raped," and "I am afraid of you." It is also important to make note of the inundation of messages that girls and women receive about how not to get raped. There is a long list, it's contradictory, and the gist of it is, "You should be afraid of being raped, and if you don't follow these rules you basically brought it upon yourself." *Edit: My bad, not what Audrey was trying to say at all.
It wasn't. I type fast - but not that fast. And since I guess my point didn't come across to you it probably wouldn't come across to others, so I'll tldr myself. Men getting upset over being worried about being misinterpreted as a potential rapist is a byproduct of sexism. So a good motivation to be a "feminist ally" or - gasp - actually a feminist is that you would be helping to get rid of the negative consequences that sexism has for men too. And as part of the Good Guys, it's probably easier for you to help break down the whole sexist system from the inside rather than leaving women/feminists to do it on their own. And that if you recognize what you're all complaining about is really just trickled down misogyny, maybe it would be cool to help fight against misogyny instead of fighting against the people fighting against misogyny?
You realize that the original article is about telling GUYS to cross the street, not the women, right?
This one is probably the most prime example of how this guy has no idea what the fuck he's talking about. "Be an involved father." "Teach your son to love and respect women". Wow, I am healed with this spellbinding cosmic wisdom of lore. Thank you for telling us something we already didn't completely know. He has no clue why mothers usually take maternity leave and what "bonding" is when it comes to giving birth. It's something that a man can't relate to. Or a BOY for this matter. Maternity/paternity leave isn't simply based on who needs to be more involved as a parent, it's based on what's more financially responsible, how schedules conflict, plus various personal issues that vary from house to house. It also varies from nation to nation, there are so many factors and a huge important decision and this fuckhead is simply pawning off that guys should be doing it like it's chipping in on the housework. Please don't tell me he gets paid to type this. We might as well throw ourselves into the sea if that's the case.