Tuesday Sober Thread: Right to Die

Even with all of the problems he had, there is a basic instinct to survive. At a certain point, he seems to realize that all he was doing was existing instead of living.

 

We see this a lot, though, no? People who just float through life like zombies. Yet they never even consider suicide, let alone planning it out and following through with it. So what makes that neuron fire, the one that says "fuck instinct, I'm done"? That's what shrinks and neuroscientists can't quite figure out. It's just such an intense decision that it's myopic to label it as weakness or cowardice.

 

We're both observers here, speaking in hindsight. But where you say he never tried the systems put in place to help people with serious problems, I say that he did (because, well, he says he did) and instead of finding a system that served to help his problems, his experiences led him to believe otherwise. He did not trust that things would be handled in the way that he needed them to be. Whether his read on things may have been incorrect (to a casual observer) is irrelevant. He felt that it wasn't going to work for him.

You can say whatever you want about what the systems put in place are supposed to do, or what they've done for others, but you're not him, and you're attempting to judge his actions based upon what you either think you would have done or what you think he should have done. The filter you're using to look at this whole situation through is skewed. If we were talking about another person's suicide who didn't leave a detailed letter about their motives and life, then maybe you'd be justified in saying that they ignored help. But with this, it's almost as if your ignoring everything he says except for the very small pieces, taken out of the context of his life as it appears in the letter, to make your argument.

 

I am one of those people that thinks suicide is selfish in most cases. It is an action not even born of desperation, but of, fuck it, I don't want to take the time to deal with this.

My cousin's father killed himself the day that his daughter was giving birth to her first child. So now every time that child has a birthday it is also a reminder of the fact that her father killed himself.

Sure, he had some issues in his life, but he killed himself on the day that a new opportunity in his life opened up, the birth of his grandchild. Perhaps that would have been the thing that gave him purpose, to be there for the child. Instead, he chose the selfish way out.

However, with terminal illness, I don't know where I stand. I can understand it saves the pain of the disease, and making your family suffer through watching you die slowly.

My father in law's kidneys are dead. They just don't function anymore, and he is on dialysis, something that takes up hours of his day, and prevents him from going on vacations. He can't even go home to Sweden because there is no way for him to do dialysis on the plane.

He basically is slowly dying, unless he can get a kidney, which is unlikely at 69 years old. But I would rather him live out the rest of the days, however many he has left, rather than him cut his life short for his convenience.

 

I know a guy who is heavily medicated for mental illness. When he is on his meds, he feels fine and thinks he doesn't need his meds. He stops taking them, then eventually ends up back in the hospital or jail, and starts the cycle all over again. Some people get tired of that cycle and give up.

'sack, I know it seems black and white to you, but just because you've learned to cope with when you were molested as a child, doesn't mean it's just that simple. If I'm being honest, I tend to lean towards your line of reasoning; but, since it's not my problems represented, I'm trying not to be as callous.

 

What I'm most confused about is why he doesn't want to out the rapist. Had he done that sometime, he may have saved countless other kids from being mollested.

The only time I truely care about someone committing suicide is when it is a close friend/family member of mine. In principle I think it is wrong to leave behind family/whatever, but I really could give a shit less. In the end you are one less drain on society so...pull the trigger away?

Words of wisdom for those that are depressed- My father always told me "If you ever want to commit suicide, you had best do it outside, because I don't want my last memory of you to be cleaning your brains off the wall."

 

I think it needs to be pointed out that making the decision to seek professional mental help and then to actually follow through with the process is a very difficult one. It's not like going in for your checkup or getting a cavity filled and you just pick a guy on your insurance and you're in and out. I'm currently in therapy, and it took me over two years to finally act on me wondering if maybe I should go (and it wasn't even that foreign to me, because I was in and out of counseling since I was literally in the womb to when I was 14 or so, with another brief stint about halfway between then and now).

The most basic of hindrances is that it is fucking expensive and is rarely (if ever? I don't know) covered by insurance. With this particular guy it sounds from your discussion that he wouldn't have had a problem with paying for it, but for the average person it's a major financial decision and I'm sure in the cases of these people being parents they would feel guilty spending such an extravagant expense on something just for themselves when they could be using the money to feed, shelter, and clothe their children.

And, while there isn't as much of a social stigma of going to therapy anymore, there's still potentially a personal stigma attached to it. I know that I always hesitated, especially this last time, to go back because it felt like it was a sign of me being weak and copping out of dealing with my issues, even when I was fully aware that I wasn't, in fact, dealing with my issues, at least in any healthy way. I'm pretty private about health anyway, but it's also uncomfortable for me that people know I'm in therapy. I've only told a few people, and they're really the only ones who would understand why I needed it, and they don't even know the whole reason. If anyone else were to know, they'd start wondering why I would (because my life looks pretty awesome from the outside) and I don't like being judged like that, and I especially don't like people worrying about me. I'm really lucky because my dad is paying for it, but I feel so guilty because he has no idea why and I can tell he's upset and worried because he knows something's up that I'm not telling him, but I couldn't possibly imagine telling him any of the reasons. So there's this whole added burden of guilt associated with the whole process.

Which brings me to the other point, is that it is a huge, difficult process, and it is so easy for it to seem like too much and not worth it when you're in such a bad place. There are endless different types of therapists and psychiatrists and counselors, all with different styles and areas of expertise and personalities. Finding one that's the right fit for you is like dating, and it can be really hard and potentially waste a lot of time and money before you even start getting actual help, if you ever find someone you feel is a good match. And then once you start, a whole other level of problems comes in. Opening up and being that vulnerable and trusting and even just saying certain things out loud is painful. And it's rare that you get any actionable advice. It could be months or years before you start feeling any better and feel like you have any more sense of or hold on your life than when you started. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the rationale against going to therapy gets even stronger the more times you try it, as I'm sure is the case with a lot of suicides. They sought help and it didn't work, or it made things even more difficult. It's not like mental health care is some magic wand and suddenly everything's better, so to blame them for not seeking it or giving up on it is silly.

 

Bullshit. I know therapists and psychologists that are reluctant to seek therapy. This is why a paranoid schizophrenic walked in two weeks ago with a label of ADHD and a prescription for ADHD medication from his general practitioner. ADHD is the friendly diagnosis du jour. Dude was actively psychotic. Visual hallucinations, auditory hallucinations, olfactory hallucinations, and he and his mother were adamant that he was ADHD and he was not schizophrenic.

 

Sorry for being blunt here, but why is this even a question? Obviously you have a right to take your own life. You have free will. Am I missing something here?

 

I had a whole long post typed up, then I realized fuck it, no one wants to read that shit. So here's some youtube videos instead (in college I did a presentation on why I am for clinically-assisted suicide for the terminally ill):

Dr. Kevorkian explains how his "suicide machine" works.



An elderly man exercises his "right to die" in a hospital-style setting (a Switzerland clinic) on camera. This is very sad, but it is in no way graphic.



A CBS clip interviewing people for and against clinically-assisted suicide.

 

This subject brings out a lot of emotions to me. I've been in a mental hospital twice because of suicidal ideation (self-admitted). I've also been to 10+ therapists and been prescribed countless anti-depressants/pyschotics.

To say that this man was a coward is extremely callous and lacks any kind of attempt at understanding what mental illness truly is.

Saying that he could have gotten more help or whatever doesn't speak to the insidiousness of this disease.

At the depths of despair, you're asking someone who isn't thinking rationally, to, well, think rationally. Without my wife, whom I trust more than anyone, there would have been almost zero chance that I got any kind of help. When you don't want to get out of bed or shower or do anything, there's next to no chance you want to get all fired up about telling your problems to a stranger who you're already skeptical about in the first place. I can certainly empathize with the feeling that a therapist sometimes doesn't remember your name. Not a real confidence builder. Don't show up for an appointment? Yup, I've had only one therapist call and see if I was OK. Doesn't inspire much confidence that this person gives two shits about you. Is that someone you would trust with your deepest, darkest secrets? When someone is seriously thinking about killing themselves, most commonly held beliefs about depression go out the window. Your brain is actively trying to kill you. Unless you've been there, I submit that you can never truly understand what that feels like.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from seeking help, but let's not pretend that it unequivocally will fix whatever problem you're dealing with.

Something that was nagging at me while reading this letter is his clarity and ability to write about what he was going to do and then to actually follow through with it. I've assumed that most people at their worst can't really formulate such a comprehensive suicide note. Maybe Dr. Rob could speak to this?

If anyone wants to try to gain some perspective into what depression feels like, I'd suggest reading Darkness Visible by William Styron... It's a short read, but well worth your time. Just don't read it if you are depressed.

As to if someone has the right to die? I think everyone does. Are their consequences to this? Yes. People who love you will be haunted by what they could have done. But in some cases, people are just broken. To ask them to suffer endlessly is to ask them to live for other people's sense of how their life should be. It's a brain disorder that hopefully will be cured, but for people suffering with it, I'd be reticent to pretend that I can feel exactly how they're feeling. Perhaps people can learn from this. When someone is acting standoffish or does things that seem out-of-the-norm, maybe we should be asking them if everything is OK. Perhaps if someone took a more vested interest in this man's life he could've worked it out. But then again, in his case, that didn't seem to work either.

 

As someone who's gone through therapy and been on medication, I'd like to say something.

Ballsack, shut the fuck up. Unless you've dealt with being suicidal, being forced to go to therapy and being forced to take medication, you are in no position to criticize anybody. The amount of ignorance you've displayed on this thread is so forehead-slappingly amazing that if I were to see you in the street, I'd kick your smug self-absorbed ass into a coma.

Edited to stay on focus: Everybody has the freedom to end their lives. If you feel like there's nothing to live for, that's your business.

 

This is one of the few topics that truly interested me at uni. I remember coming in to the discussion about suicide with a strong sense of superiority. It wasn't so much a "I know everything" kind of thing. It was more like I was a young adult who felt like every challenge in life was just a bump in the road to be overcome. The topic of suicide and right to die completely changed my perspective.

You cannot possibly grasp the depth behind this discussion by applying your "properly" working brain and considering the decision to commit suicide as a logical choice. The people doing the suiciding are obviously not thinking the way you are.

I'd go so far as to suggest that it's downright ignorant to introduce either of those terms into the discussion, let alone shortsighted. Every person looking to condemn these unfortunate individuals is just interested in disassociating themselves. And you're just proving their point. You're interested in their selfishness, in the kids they left behind, the professional help they could have received. But you're not taking the time to really appreciate them, and what they are feeling, and what they have gone through. You're not interested in helping.

I don't mean to defend the decision to commit suicide, I am simply trying to illustrate that it's not a black and white situation. I personally feel that mentally sound individuals are not able to truly understand what these people are going through. The closest we can try to get is to have sympathy or empathy. As an example, my maternal grandmother died when I was a kid. I was the first one home to find my mom experiencing the loss. She was obviously a mess and I was just a kid and I felt completely helpless. I didn't have the slightest idea what she was going through (I didn't know my grandmother so I wasn't emotionally involved I guess) and I didn't know how to make it better. So I just sat with her and waited for my siblings to get home. I feel the same way today when talking to people who have gone through intense emotional distress. I had no idea what to tell my friend when she was going through her first heartbreak, and to be honest, I didn't really care. I just told her cheesy shit like "get over it" and "there are plenty of fish in the sea." It wasn't until my first breakup that I truly understood the emotional turmoil of losing someone you love. It was something else entirely to have the logical side of my brain make plans to move on and acknowledge that the relationship wasn't the best while my emotional side was just a complete mess.

Reading Mr. Zeller's note, I see how he tried to communicate his situation to us logically and clearly. I got the clear impression that he was a level-headed individual otherwise and that the decision to end his life was the result of a logical exercise to find a solution to a lifelong mental problem. How can you look at that and judge him for being weak or selfish? He laid out the steps he took to try to correct the problem and get away from it. He even identified the external issues that contributed to his feelings (like how people reacted to him being "gay"). Yea, he had trust issues. Guess what? The man was MOLESTED as a child and his plumbing was damaged in the process. Every time he used the bathroom he was reminded of it!!! TWENTY THREE YEARS!!! He felt incapable of intimacy with another living being. I'm sorry, no one here is in the position to judge this man, may he rest in peace.

In an ideal world, I would like to agree with people saying that he didn't truly exhaust all the options he had. Maybe a shrink could have helped him. Maybe meds could have saved his life. But he wasn't in the mental position to try those options. Sadly, I think we'll be losing many lives today to mental illnesses that will one day be fully treatable.

As far as the focus, I do believe in assisted suicide and the right to die.

 

I can't speak with the same authority that Dr. Rob can, I'm still in graduate school. Typically people don't commit suicide at their worst. Their energy is so depleted that they can't even commit suicide. Generally speaking, it's on the rebound, after the lowest point when the person starts to see an increase in energy do they actually decide to write notes, make plans, and attempt suicide.

 

Did you even read the letter? He did try to seek help, didn't have great results. He tried to tell people who he thought were close to him about a secret of his (potentially being gay). That didn't work out. I can't say for sure, but if that worked out better for him, at some point, he might have trusted someone enough to tell them about his darkness.

You're truly out of your depth here, frustratingly so. I'm not sure, outside of your own ego, why you are trying to prove other people wrong. Let's just chalk this one out to being outside of your empathy zone. If you fail to grasp the basic concepts of severe clinical depression, it would probably be best for everyone if you didn't offer your opinion. You aren't helping anyone by basically saying he should've man'ed up or whatever... That's one reason people choose not to seek treatment. It's akin to telling a man with colon cancer that he should just shake it off and will his body to do things it's not capable of. In other words, it's absurd.

 

I cannot believe Im about defend him.

No. It would be like telling the man with colon cancer to man up and go to the doctor. If the man refused, then died of butt hole disease, he would be like the subject in question.

This is what I don't understand, it seems like all of you that have depression issues, and have been to treatment to get better seem to be siding with Bill. You would think since you were in a similar situation, you went and got help, then realized there was a reason to keep living, that this would make you scream how retarded Bill was. Instead you for some reason side with the victim, and I can't understand why. You are all awesome examples of what getting help can do for you.

 

Wait, I might be reading this wrong.

Your biggest obstacle in life is the fact that your high-paying job isn't emotionally fulfilling -- this is your ULTIMATE BRAINBUSTING PARADOX -- and you deign to talk down to somebody who doesn't even want to go to sleep at night?

You brag about sexually assaulting campers with beauty products, and you're speaking down to somebody who on a daily basis dealt with physical and emotional scars from repeated rapes?

You admit in the very same sentence that your situation was entirely different and you try to extrapolate it to somebody whom you've never met and you expect people to listen to anything you have to say on the issue and not introduce your face to the business end of a frying pan?

Let me put this in language you might understand 'sackster: WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. WRONG. WITH. YOU?

 

Now I am just a simple Hyper-chicken from a backwoods asteroid, but might I suggest that if the vast majority of people who have professional or private experience with the issue have suggested that it's not so simple, and that they understand why it was difficult, there might be something there?

Can you really not understand how somebody who has successfully dealt with difficult issues wouldn't have more compassion for those who have succumbed to them?

 

As much as I generally dislike Baldie Crackhead, I think it's amusing that most of you are missing that ballsack and Dr. Rob are writing essentially the same thing. The difference is that ballsack does so in a very callous, insulting manner, while Dr. Rob does so compassionately.

However, what they're saying is one and the same; this tortured man did not get the help he could have, and that is currently available to those suffering from such trauma.

Surely, the tragic fate of this man shouldn't obscure this simple fact, should it? Why not think in constructive terms (something that Zeller lacked in this case), about what could/should have been done, instead of just throwing up one's hands helplessly?