I've vaguely mentioned this before, but I actually work for the NY State Senate (the gay marriage vote might have been the only time I was ever truly proud to work for the Senate) and was in Albany during the whole gay marriage debate. I've also personally read thousands of emails both pro and con and pretty much every anti gay marriage email was based in religion. And if that's the only argument against it, then it isn't an argument at all. To those who have said this wasn't a civil rights issue, try being in the capitol when they announced the bill had passed. I strongly doubt the hundreds who had been protesting for the bill the entire week, day and night, didn't see this as a civil rights issue. It was a great feeling just to play an extremely small part in getting this thing passed and to be there amongst those people who had been fighting for this for so long. Incidentally, if anyone wants to hear some stories about how the vote was nearly derailed multiple times over some seriously dumb shit, pm me.
Do you know what the debate on gay vs. straight parents needs? Some evidence. Some hard evidence. Until then, just positing your opinion as a maxim is useless. But I also take issue with this issue of "natural". What is so natural about being raised by a mom and dad in a house, anyways? If you want your kids to be raised in a natural environment, go out to the jungle, start wiping your ass with banana leaves, forsake vaccination and medicine, communicate via primitive grunts and pursue an existence of subsistence.
Ah government. Where they act they like they won the superbowl when they manage to do their jobs without grossly fucking it up.
I’m sick of hearing about it. Gay marriage will effect no real change in society either good or bad. It’s just one of those emotive issues for politicians and fringe groups to wank on about while blowing its importance as a social issue out of proportion to get their heads in the media. People who dislike the gayers will still disapprove of their relationship if they are married, people who are supportive will be no less supportive if they aren’t and people like myself who couldn’t give less of a fuck either way still won’t be giving one. It’s a bullshit topic which gets far too much airtime.
That doesn't properly address the point Blue Dog was trying to make. It's a pressing concern (and understandably so) for them, but that doesn't necessarily make it a pressing concern for the nation as a whole. It's an important issue, yes. And in due time (hopefully sooner than later), that issue will be resolved. But what will legalizing gay marriage solve, if it comes at the expense of larger concerns, like the one Ballsack listed on page 1? Just because I wish pot was legal, doesn't mean I'm joining the rallying cry for it to happen in the near future. That's because I'd much rather see our country devote it's time, energy, and resources towards current matters that are much more important. Not nearly the same thing as gay marriage, but do you see my point? Serious question: why is it such a big deal to some gay people whether they be allowed to marry? I understand they want equality - which I'm 100% in favor of - but I can't understand why the institution of marriage is so important to them. If you need a certification from the government in order to validate your relationship, then it's probably not a healthy relationship to begin with. I'm willing to bet there are many gay/lesbian couples who don't care to get married, even after it's legalized. For the ones that do, I'm curious: what will it actually change? I'm not asking to be an asshole; I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious about why the stakes are so high here. To be fair, these are things I wonder about any coupling, be it gay or straight. Flame on (no pun intended).
I have no problem with gay couples wanting to marry. Where I do see a potential problem that will eventually arise is gay couples also wanting to have children, via adoption etc. Particularly male-male couples. I think society in general is going to have a major issue with that one.
I kind of hate this argument. What's the problem with it? The usual arguments are 'it makes me uncomfortable' - go fuck yourself. 'Gay men are more likely to be pedophiles' - you're an idiot, go fuck yourself and consider reading on the topic before speaking. 'It's unnatural' - it occurs in many, many strains of animal life, and in many cases (such as the Canada Snow Goose) gay male parents are actually much better parents. 'It's bad for the children' - not an argument for preventing heterosexual couples for adopting, despite frequently being quite bad for the children, and the evidence actually suggests that there's no indication that same sex parents place the children under any undue hardship, and possibly the opposite is true. Honestly, I think gay marriage (and plural marriage) should be legalized. Or marriage should just be deregulated and the current rights and duties assigned to married parties should be instead assigned to parties who qualify as 'defacto' or common law spouses, regardless of gender, or number of participants. Really, why should the law recognize your connection to someone who doesn't pass the tests for defacto or common law spouses? ? The tests for defacto or common law spouses require commitment demonstrated by time and financial involvement, far more compelling than a slurred 'I Do yer Elvisness' in Vegas. What possible benefit from a marriage can there be, that a man, woman, multiple men, multiple women, or miscellaneous livestock don't deserve if they pass the tests as defacto spouses?
Imperfect analogy, but w/e: Serious question: why is it such a big deal to some black people whether they be allowed to drink from a certain fountain? I understand they want rights - which I'm 100% in favor of - but I can't understand why the idea of being able to drink from the same fountain is so important to them. If you need public fountains to manage your hydration needs, then you probably can't manage on your own anyway. I'm willing to bet that many black people will continue to bring water in bottles from home. For the ones that drink in public: what will it change? I'm not asking to be an asshole; I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious about what the big deal about a fountain? To be fair, I drink from a hose in my yard. tl;dr version: Outside of certain important legal and social benefits from marriage, relatively minor distinctions can become rallying points for larger arguments. Kinda like how Rosa Parks probably didn't really care that much where she sat.
I'm shocked that people on here have an issue with same-sex couples adopting. Why? If it's a strong moral household than what difference does it make? Does that mean all single parents should be required to re-marry IMMEDIETLY to maintain the balance at home? Hell, I myself was raised by a Kodiak Bear and a guy named Steve who liked licking knife blades and then spitting blood on the wall, and I turned out fine. You know why people are like this? Because they're AFRAID that the gay parents will try to corrupt the sweet, innocent child into joing the dreaded "Other Side". Sorry, idiot. That's just not fucking possible. We're born gay or we're not, and the only two people that disagree with me on that are Anne Heche and Pat Robertson. Parents aren't the only human influence in a chld's life. There's friends, teachers, neighbours, television, books, etc. So why this "It's not natural, I don't think the kid will turn out right with gay parents, etc." crap? Are you fucking kidding me? Honestly, statements like that may be the stupidest shit I have heard in the entire history of stupid shit. And by the way, EVERY married couple is a same-sex couple. Every night, it's the same sex.
No, not at all. I don't think they're exactly the same. Even ignoring all of the accidental pregnancies in and out of marriage (which, realistically, we should not be ignoring here), don't you think that if it took a little more thought and commitment than a woman's biological clock ticking loudly and a guy willing to fuck her, we might have a lot of better parents, regardless of sexuality? You know, if it took, say, six months of or a year or more and you had to interview to prove you were serious, and prove your financial ability to have a child, undergo counseling and a home inspection and pay a substantial amount of money for all of that. Don't you think you might be getting a higher level of commitment than some fuckwit 22 year old who thinks "graduate college, get married, have children" is etched in stone for the 5 years following the first birthday where they can legally consume alcohol?
My wife adopted our daughter before we got together. Adopted her from Russia, and it was still a five year ordeal. She still had to do the home studies, deal with the social workers, pay large sums of money (I want to say it was about $6k total) and also fly to Siberia twice. That took two years. Then, for three years after she brought her home, she still had the in-home visits, early intervention, etc. That was easier than adopting a kid from the US in our own state. Like Binary said, that's a big difference than some girl running out to get knocked up. I used to work in a blood bank and we'd do workups on all the newborns. I still remember doing a blood type on a newborn that was the second child of a 14 year old. There are women who will go get knocked up on purpose for child support or to manipulate their boyfriend/husband. There are 16 and 17 year olds that get pregnant and then keep the baby "because abortion is a sin". Of course, pre-marital sex is too, but that gets conveniently ignored by those kinds of people. There are lots of alcoholic parents. Drug addict parents. Abusive parents. Just because a baby comes out of a heterosexual marriage doesn't mean the parents are any less fucked up than anyone else, it just means they had an easier time getting a child. My wife has even said, "Giving birth doesn't give you wings and a halo. You still have to do the job and raise the child." As far as gays having kids goes, the only ones who really suffer obtaining a child are the gay men. A lesbian couple can have a kid: Just find a guy to fuck one time which is what my Sociology professor and her partner did.
Equality of treatment is one part of it (e.g. the fountain analogy). The fact is, though, there are also legal ramifications for being considered married by the state. My girlfriend and I, to a certain extent, face that right now. We're not really interested in getting married (despite having been together for 7 years). But she can't get my health insurance benefits without being married. If she were hurt and in critical condition, I would not count as "family" to visit her, or to provide consent for things she may not be able to provide consent for. There are tax benefits to being married. Some countries would not let us move there as a "couple" if one of us got a visa, because we're not married (and that includes moving into the US if we were foreigners). Now, for us, it's just a choice to not be married but the point stands that legal recognition of a marriage is not just about asking for equal recognition - there are actually privileges that married couples are granted by the state/country that are not granted to gay couples.
Shouldn't this just be a side-benefit and not the rationale? My feeling is they should be allowed to get married because fuck it, it makes them happy. As far as the water fountain thing Nom brought up, I think it's more of because there is a restriction. If someone told you you're not allowed to walk on a certain street for no discernible reason other than your race, religion, culture, etc wouldn't your natural inclination be to rebel? I think it was more the representation of the fact that blacks weren't allowed to use the white fountain because whites saw them as inferior or whatever it was.
It's more the rights that marriage guarantees. As a husband, you get to be with your wife when she's in the hospital. You get to make decisions. If you have to pull the plug, YOU get to make that call. You get her benefits, no questions asked. You get your wife's insurance benefits, death benefits, etc. Your wife gets yours. You get to be on equal footing with your spouse. There's a permanence with saying husband/wife (despite the incredibly high divorce rate) that many people value. Aside from that, the legal rights being married grants are a driving force.
This is the point exactly. As a business owner the benefits I extend to a legally married couple are much different to any other "legitimate" couple, gay or heterosexual. Whether you are talking about health benefits, family medical leave, bereavement, etc. You also have the tax benefits and medical issues mentioned. Concerning gay couples and children - A lifelong friend of mine is a lesbian. She is highly educated works in the medical field and her now ex-partner is an attorney. They were together for 20 or so years. My friend was artificially inseminated and they had a daughter. She is in her late teens and was raised by two openly gay women and she is as heterosexual as you get. Boyfriends, proms, the whole package. I bring this up just to enforce the observation that being gay is not a "choice" but part of somebodies genetic makeup. I also mention this couple for the fact that they, like heterosexual couples had the same trials and tribulations of any married couple. In the long run it didn't work out - they broke their civil union and both have moved on to other partners. They share custody of their daughter and have to deal with all the issues that divorce brings. If two people love each other and want to commit to a life together I think they should be able to be legally married and enjoy the benefits that society provides to "legitimate" couples. And by the way - I'm about as uptight a conservative Republican as you can get...
I know we have a lesbian here that has a child via artificial insemination. I think her partner had a kid from the same donor. I won't out (zing) them, but perhaps they can speak to some of you that think there are issues with gays raising kids. And as to the argument of if you chose to be gay or not. If I was a woman I would definitely chose to be gay. Naked men are icky.