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Tuesday Sober Thread- Gay Marriage: Will it Work?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dr. Rob, Jun 27, 2011.

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  1. Nick

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    I think once the band-aid is pulled off, this will be a long forgotten issue. It will be a win for the gay community, with only a slight "hangover" in the coming years. Whether the divorce rate for the gay community rises exponentially, or their adopted kids end up being complete degenerates down the road, this will never be reversed, no matter how much empirical evidence is gathered over the next 20 years, and everybody knows that.

    There will be a select few nutjobs that hold onto the "we never should have let this happen, look at us now" mentality, but the rest of the folks who were on the fence will learn to deal with and forget about it. Once it's no longer a political "lever", it frankly just won't matter as much anymore. It's one thing to be a public figure saying "I don't think we should legalize gay marriage today", and it's a complete other to be saying "we should make gay marriage illegal again tomorrow". In the end, both sentiments are the same, however, the latter is far too strong of an overt opinion. There are just way too many people on the fence that enjoy their silence on the matter.

    The religious fanatics are going to be engaged in their "fight against homosexuality", whether it's in the context of marriage, or civil union, or however the relationship is defined. In their eyes, a homosexual relationship is wrong, whether it's legally contractual or not. Sadly, this won't change either way.

    Edit - I didn't really address whether I think it will work or not. I for one, do think it will work, for a number of the reasons people have touched on. I also think that it will be difficult to measure in the coming years, particularly if we think that divorce rate is the most relevant metric. I think they will work exponentially harder to make it work, if only just to prove a point to the people who opposed gay marriage for so long. Even if the marriage falls apart, they might be more inclined to live unhappily than to admit defeat. That will change over time, but I really think it will be difficult to measure over the next several years.
     
  2. $100T2

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    I have to agree with you there. The thing that bugs me most about the gays that fall in that category is that everything in their life revolves around being gay. I still remember (and still get annoyed to this day) a guy they interviewed on CNN after 9/11: "Sir, what do you think about all these people coming together in Central Park to show solidarity?" Guy: "Well, I'm gay, and it's just nice to see gay people aren't being excluded from this." Terrorist attack, and the only thing the guy can think about is his sexuality.

    I don't answer questions immediately with, "Well, I'm straight..."

    I used to be a sign language interpreter, and there are a lot of homosexuals in that community. Two of the other interpreters were openly gay, and one of them was overly open and graphic about his sex life: He'd walk over to where we were having lunch and just blurt out, "Well, I had helium in my heels all weekend!" (Yes, he meant on his back with his feet up on some guys shoulders getting rammed.) The other comments I've tried to erase from my brain. So, one day my buddy and I decide to talk about our own sex lives. "Man, I bent her over and beat that pussy like it owed me money!" The gay guy: "Eww, that's gross, I don't want to hear about that!" Us: "WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR SHIT EITHER." Being out of the closet is all well and good, but show some fucking restraint, ya know?

    There are thousands of hetero-based families that have far bigger problems than the sex of the two parents. Go into a family court sometime and you'll be totally amazed at some of the "parents" in today's society.

    Religion is just as personal as sexuality. George Carlin said it best: "Keep thy religion to thyself." Many people seem to use religion as a pillar to stand on and look down on others. Religion may prohibit those in the religion from doing something, but that doesn't mean that religion can be used to deny that same thing to non-believers. Again, get rid of the religious terminology. Have a civil union for everyone. If people choose to have a religious based ceremony, they can do so, they can call it a marriage or whatever, but in the eyes of the government, just call it a civil union.

    The funny thing is that there are lots of gay churches, especially in SoCal. Ironic that these people worship the same thing that others are using to rally against them.

    Honestly, whatever. Again, if there are consenting adults who want to do that stuff, go ahead. Personally, I don't want multiple wives: I only need one person riding my ass to mow the lawn, fix the car, etc, etc. Anyone who says, "Hell yeah! Polygamy!" has been watching too much MFFFFFFF porn. Watch that crazy ass "Sister Wives" show sometime. Yeah, the guy makes out pretty well banging them all on a schedule, but other than that, no thanks. Four wives, four times the drama, then one or two wives feel jealous. Fuck that.

    You can't prove it's not a choice. You also can't prove it is a choice.

    However, if you're going to put the "choice" limits on things, hell, I chose who I married. Yes, she's a woman, but it was still a "choice". Bringing whether or not it's a choice into things can then bring age differences, race, mental and physical disabilities, etc, etc into the picture.
     
  3. Arctic_Scrap

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    I had to post this Bluntcard as it just came out today. Lots of good points in this thread on the subject though. I could really care less if gay people get married though. Whatever they do together will still be the same after getting hitched. Also, being an atheist, I enjoy seeing the religitards getting their panties in a bunch over gay marriage.
     
  4. audreymonroe

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    All of the gay couples I know have the exact same issues as all of the straight couples I know, so my knee-jerk reaction is that gay marriages won't be more or less successful as straight marriages. However, I hadn't even considered the unwanted pregnancy issues others have brought up before, and that's a great point. It also got me thinking that I've never heard of a physically abusive gay relationship. I haven't heard of an emotionally abusive gay relationship, either, but I'd imagine that's more likely than the physically abusive ones. (Why yes, that is drawn from a stereotypical conclusion that gays aren't physically aggressive but are drama queens.) While I'm sure there are prime examples of both of these types of abuse, it's at least a lot less prevalent. The overcoming adversity points and the likelihood that many of the couples now seeking marriage have already been in committed adult relationships with each other for a long time, past the difficult first stages couples encounter during marriage points are also good arguments that they could be more successful.

    Gay marriage is one of those issues that I hate arguing about. If someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to debate the opposite side of any of these political arguments, I could do it with most of them. But I haven't heard any argument against gay marriage where I've thought, "Yeah, you know I don't agree with it, but I can see how someone could have that opinion." It has always boiled down to homophobia and bigotry. So, my biggest issue with the whole issue is I don't even understand why it's still being debated anymore, legally. It's cliche but they're not hurting anyone; this whole thing is about marriage that seems to be a lot more about actual love. I don't see why anyone should be denied that. And for the whole "but what next?" "argument," I don't really care. I don't agree with polygamy, but if it's consensual I don't give a shit if people participate in it. I think the people who fall in love with roller coasters and shit are fucking weird and probably insane, but if they wanted to marry their beloved street lamp than whatthefuckever. Those 50 people in the country can go be deranged. (Before you take me completely seriously, everything past polygamy is a bit tongue-in-cheek.) As much as I hate this approach, I don't think these should be the arguments should be what ties up government so much. Give fill-in-the-blank the right to marry and carry on in their own personal lives, and focus on how to fix the economy or end even one of the wars.

    And the comments about pride parades are absurd. It's a parade, it's supposed to be over the top. Have you seen any other kind of non-sexuality-based pride parade? The whole point is to go all out representing your heritage or sexuality or hobby or whatever. There are definitely superflamboyant gays out there who don't dress all that differently in their everyday lives and whose entire identity is about being gay (and I agree that both of these are over the top and annoying), but complaining about pride parades is stupid. And I'm running out of steam to even touch on the whole "Yeah, I'm okay with you being gay, but can you stop being so gay and flaunting it in my face?" sentiment if it's being directed to the everyday gay who isn't doing everything he can to hide the fact that he likes boys. It's just dumb.
     
  5. Beefy Phil

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    I love you to death, dude, but you're wording this terribly, and you're outright wrong in a couple spots.

    In the first place, for every Rosie O'Donnell or Perez Hilton, there are thousands of men and women who champion the cause quietly and earnestly. Not for attention or accolade, but because this issue is the most important thing to them. This is their quality of life they're fighting for. We're not two decades away from a period of American history where walking down the street appearing to be gay was a serious risk. Like, stabbed/shot/sodomized with a pipe and set on fire in an alley risky. The right to marry is one more step away from that and one more toward a level of acceptance they could not have dreamed of twenty years ago.

    Basically, I ask that you not judge the worthiness of a cause by the actions of its least favorable advocates.

    As for those activist politicians supposedly ignoring the will of their constituencies, I'll say this: to hell with those constituencies. This country has determined time and again that the impulses of personal ideology should not affect the ability of another citizen to live his or her life as they see fit. That "will of the people" argument has been used to justify some of the most oppressive policies ever visited on Americans, by Americans, and it is intrinsically false. It is the antithesis of personal liberty. What you believe should never decide who someone else can or cannot be.
     
  6. Gravitas

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    Do you hate all the shit that goes on with Mardi Gras? Or Spring Break? Those are basically celebrations of sexuality. Or at least have that element to them. I think the reason people don't like gay pride parades is because they just don't like the thought of two dudes going at it, which I would just consider homophobia.

    The whole "standing by what she was raised to believe" is a cop out. She was over 18, so we have to hold her responsible as an individual. Besides, what about kids who have neo-nazi parents? They might hold onto that shit, but it doesn't make it right.

    Public sentiment can suck my balls. Plenty of public sentiment said "Hey, fuck you, slavery is the tits!" That didn't make it right.

    I vehemently agree with this. It should have never been an issue. Unfortunately, it is because people are unwilling to accept that some dudes just like penis. At the end of the day I wish we could focus on shit that really matters to me, but at the same time I think if I was being discriminated against I would work on fixing that shit right away.
     
  7. MoreCowbell

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    I think a legitimate argument can be made here; I just don't think it is a compelling reason to deny them the right to raise children.

    It is helpful for a child to have role models and family of both genders. Yes, good parents are better than bad parents. And two parents is probably better than one. But all else being equal, I think having both a male and female adult presence is probably beneficial.

    "The only thing I have against the civil rights movement is Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam."

    You're judging a large and diverse movement by its most extremist minorities. The average gay man or lesbian woman (or even the average gay marriage advocate) does not resemble this at all.


    The problem is that we, as a society, have largely decided that some opinions are within the range of acceptable beliefs, and others are not. Thus, some are treated as mere disagreement, whereas others are truly objectionable. For example, one may dislike ketchup without ridicule, but one will be met with disdain for disliking black people. We've socially reached the point where for a large fraction of people, treating gay people differently is outside of range of acceptable beliefs. If one is raised to believe in bigotry, it is still bigotry nonetheless.

    Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but this right does not extend to freedom for ridicule for one's beliefs. Freedom of belief comes joined with the risk of being called an asshole or idiot.


    Also, it's all well and good to say that something shouldn't be an issue....when it isn't an issue for you. You would feel very differently about its significance if you were a gay man who wished to marry his partner.
     
  8. Nettdata

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    You're all misreading this.

    He's not saying that he hates gay people because of those flame-on parading types, he hates those parading types.

    And I agree.

    I have no issues at all with Teh Gheys, but I can't stand the parading, flame-on types.

    It's quite possible to have feelings about a subset without them applying to the super set.

    For example, I hate Muslim terrorists, but that doesn't necessarily mean I hate Muslims. (I undoubtedly hate the subset, but will reserve judgment on the super set on a case by case basis).
     
  9. MoreCowbell

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    I wasn't (at least not intentionally) suggesting that he has anything against gay people. My point was that this seems like an unfair complaint to make against the movement advocating gay marriage. It characterizes the cause by something that is uncharacteristic of it.

    In fact, for many years, the more flamboyant and ostentatiously gay people were often opposed to gay marriage, because they didn't want to embrace the institutions of a society that has been so cruel to them. Basically, if society was going to treat them as outcasts, they goddamnit, they would be outcasts, and embrace gay culture 110%.
     
  10. Nom Chompsky

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    I don't really like parades, in general. Not sure if that's relevant, but people deserve to know.

    It's understandable that some gay people would be flamboyant about their sexuality, though: when you spend your entirely life in the closet, when you get out you might want to skip a few times, just to stretch your legs. If you never got to talk about your sex life, you might not feel like censoring yourself, listeners be damned. When your entire life revolves around being gay (in the form of ostracization, castigation, rejection), it's hard not to view every issue through that lens.

    It doesn't make it right, though it does make it more explainable. And while I'm all for people having fun and expressing themselves after being held down for so long, there are some unintended consequences, especially with respect to media portrayal and public sympathy for gay causes.

    You can be proud to be gay and not be into Gay Pride, but having such a dominant and colorful political centerpiece can sort of overwhelm people who prefer that their homosexuality be quietly or even not at all political.
     
  11. Juice

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    So what's up with the flamboyance thing? One of the guys in my close group of friends is gay and you would never know it by talking to him or looking at him. A gay guy I knew from school was extremely flamboyant to the point where you weren't sure if he was kidding.

    So why are some gays extremely flamboyant while others aren't? It's not really comparable to anything else and I was just curious as to what's up with that...
     
  12. MoreCowbell

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    To some extent it's merely personality, but as nom said, when you've spent much of your life hiding your identity, there's probably a large urge then to swing in the opposite direction.

    Some of them view it as a response to the segments of society that would prefer to pretend they didn't exist. It's sometimes a way of saying, "I'm going to make you pay attention, whether you want to or not."


    Also, you say it's not comparable to anything else...I'm not sure about that. Think about militant black pride, such as the Black Panthers and their successors. Or the more extreme edges of feminism. I'm not sure it's all that different from other causes in this regard.
     
  13. Nom Chompsky

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    Or think about how some straight guys never talk about their sex lives. And then some straight guys walk into class bragging about having sex with deaf girls, or write books about it or whatever.

    Loaded example, but haven't you ever met an 19 year old girl who's away from the home for the first time and goes from a normal, decent, human being to the kind of person who yells for no reason at bars and insists everybody watch them ride bulls?

    On a social level, I wonder if it isn't just...good business, as they say. When you're gay, your dating pool is much smaller than a comparable straight person. Perhaps being flamboyant just makes gay people easier to find, rather than having to wade through pools of uninterested straight people.
     
  14. audreymonroe

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    Why do some guys love sports and some guys don't?

    Why do some girls compete in beauty pageants and some girls don't?

    Why do some people love red and some don't?
     
  15. zyron

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    Cause some guys are gay, duh.
     
  16. Nom Chompsky

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    Same thing I thought. What kind of hetero would willing let himself by wrapped up by a muscle-bound man and driven into the grass week after week?

    New theory: David Carr isn't immobile, just closeted.
     
  17. Aetius

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    Except he's asking why the correlation exists. If it was just a "some are, some aren't" deal you would expect the same proportion of straight men to be flamboyant.
     
  18. Binary

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    That's really the point, though. All else is never equal. There are so many fucked up families and our family values as a whole are slipping so drastically, there is no such thing as "all else being equal."

    Besides, I think good role models are more important than a role model of each gender. There is plenty of extended family to fill those roles, and considering how many single parents are raising their kids alone... this is a non-issue and I think it's far too easy to slip into unpleasant stereotypes and ridiculous accusations trying to pursue the tiny, thin line of comparing two perfect sets of parents with perfect family models, with the hetero couple perhaps having a slight edge in teaching gender roles assuming there isn't another close female relative to provide that... just silly.

    Two loving, responsible adults are going to provide a better home than a vast majority of the country is providing to their kids right now.

    I thoroughly agree with this.

    Also, I'd say it's boarderline unpleasant to say, in a thread seriously discussing the tenants of gay marriage, "people like Perez Hilton really piss me off." Just because there are douchebags championing a cause, doesn't mean the cause should be judged by them. Is it a valid observation that some of the gay marriage proponents are assholes? Sure. But saying it in a serious tone in this context implies that it's somehow a valid argument, doesn't it?
     
  19. Juice

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    So whats youre point then, they're exactly the same? What does there being fucked up families have to do with "all else being equal"? The point is, fathers and mothers provide different aspects to parenting that two people of the same gender cannot. If it weren't the case, there wouldn't be two genders. The argument isn't that hetero couples are wholly better 100% of the time, but it's a more natural environment. I'm sure theres many fucked hetero couples and many loving gay ones, but assuming a loving, caring household in both circumstances, one is better than the other. People are going to get up in arms about this, but it's absolutely true.

    The vast majority? What are you basing this vast majority on? Even so, it still has nothing to do with the original point. You're making a parrallel argument about something else entirely...
     
  20. Crown Royal

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    It's just a "thing", people act how they think they should behave. Some even "turn it up" just to get a rise out of their surrounding humans. Look at heterosexual guys: some guys shrug things off and swallow their pride, others are so needlessly macho they're willinging to break their own fucking hand punching a vending machine as hard as they can because it didn't give them a Dr. Pepper after they spent an entire dollar.

    On the focus, I have gay friends/co-workers/etc and gay marriage is a right and long overdue everywhere. The only ones on the Western front who still protest it are King James drooling retards that think the only thing a man should be allowed to put in another man is a bullet. These are the same idiots that are deluded into believing gay is a choice (for men). What? It isn't? You mean my aversion to being fisted and giving rim-jobs wasn't from reading a charismatic essay in The New Yorker? Well guess what: nobody can control how Mr. Cupid shoots those arrows, and if you think you can then you're a sicker fucking freak than any of us. But go ahead, send your kid to "Re-education/straight camp". Devoting your life to Jesus will no doubt keep you straight, it's done wonders for Priests thus far.

    According to some polls, most Americans are still against gay marriage. If that's the case, most Americans are wrong. They believe that gay marriage is an "abomination" that mocks their precious authorless book. Excuse me, marriage is sacred? Are they fucking high? Half the people out there get married because one of them is knocked up, desperate or drives a nice car. By not allowing gay marriage, you're really limiting a gay man's options. They can't ALL marry Star Jones or Liza Minelli.

    How many states still have a law against sodomy, anyway? Can't they just start with medicinal sodomy and see how it goes from there at least? Another thing: how do you arrest somebody for sodomy? Exactly how do you get "proof" of this crime?

    And my opinion on gay pride parades: Mary, please! You're parades are fun, but don't expect me to "respect you" if you're 275 lbs. and wearing a diaper, bondage harness and brandishing a novelty frisbee-sized lollipop. You look like an asshole, and normal gays think so too. You're here, you're queer, we're BORED with it.

    Great celebrity who champions gay rights: Family Guy creator Seth MacFarlane. A unapologetic womanizer who bangs a different woman every single day of the year is also an outspoken activist on the subject.
     
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