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Tuesday Sober Thread: All In The Name Of Diversity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Blue Dog, Jun 14, 2011.

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  1. Crown Royal

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    Just call me Topher

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    I wasn't contradicting anything. I was just commenting on his last sentence.

    If we peoeple want to raise their kids better, they should listen to their intincts instead of so-called "child experts" that know jack fucking SHIT about how to treat kids.
     
  2. iczorro

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    Exactly this, but with better grammar.

    Is this argument still going? I have made my points, I will now bow out...
     
  3. LessTalk MoreStab

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    To me AA is a government expressing an opinion through legislation that a particular group isn’t capable of achieving a position without being given an unfair advantage over the general pool of potential candidates. And I’m very much against it.

    Hypothetically let’s say that 10 new Test Pilot positions become available every year and the government dictates that this year at least one half Chinese/half Inuit female must be included in the mix because they are heavily unrepresented. In this case you might end up with the best 9 pilots in the country and number 463 put through into the final 10. This is retarded.

    I'm all for protection against discrimination however proactive discrimination is high level fuckwittery.
     
  4. Beefy Phil

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    Again, white people who blame affirmative action for their lot in life were already seeking scapegoats before they allowed that pale shadow to be cast. They happened to find one that doesn't do them any good. Proof? Look at the unemployment rates for black males between 18 and 30 over the last two or three years. For all the "reverse racism" going on, it's still almost twice as high as white males of similar age.

    If you want to argue that AA shouldn't exist because it is ineffective and doesn't address the underlying social and political issues that are actually causing such disparity, that's fine. But to say that it shouldn't exist because of the resentment it causes suggests that such resentment is legitimate. It isn't. Especially if they want to blame policy for their failure to succeed while touting the power of self-determination in the same sentence.

    I promise you, there is not a "qualified, competent" white person in this country who is suffering expressly because Harvard's black acceptance rate is twice as high as its white acceptance rate.
     
  5. Bryan

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    The black unemployment rate for young men being twice as high as that for white males is not ipso facto "proof" that black people don't benefit at the expense of white people when it comes to affirmative action. In fact, someone could point to this same statistic you proffered and say (with the same sincerity as you did), "Black people are hopelessly incompetent. Proof? Look at the unemployment rates for black males between 18 and 30 over the last two or three years. For all the 'reverse racism' going on, it's still almost twice as high as white males of similar age." Of course, neither conclusion (yours or the one I just made up) is warranted given the premise (black unemployment for males 18-30 being twice that of whites).

    On a similar note, if achievement gaps narrow between population groups over time, an affirmative action proponent might say affirmative action is working, and thus we need more of it. However, if achievement gaps between population groups stay stagnant or widen over time, the same affirmative action proponent might point to the gap and say we don't have enough affirmative action and thus we need more of it.
     
  6. iczorro

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    Ok, the way you're attacking what he said is stupid, because there's a valid point in there that you refused to acknowledge.

    In plain language (since you seem too daft to get it), it's this: If you say that some people are more likely to get in to whatever because they're black/white/green, then you're besmirching the reputation of wherever they're trying to get in. Suddenly, Harvard is a place that is going to take me more often if I'm a black guy with great GPA, community service, and extra-curriculars than if I'm a white guy with the same, rather than just being a brilliant guy that deserves it.

    Fuckk AA in the face, and fuck all it's racist brethren programs, I'm going to sleep... So tired.
     
  7. Bryan

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    You see, if you flip the words "black" and "white" around and throw in "half" for "twice, all of a sudden you sound callous and perhaps racist to some people. And life is a stochastic process. Not getting into Harvard may not doom a person in and of itself. But it could be the difference between getting an investment banking job at a top firm and getting overlooked during the full-time recruitment process. Which may then be the difference between getting into an elite business school or not. Which could then the difference between getting that slick private equity job or not. When you make each step in life more difficult for some people than others (there's affirmative action at the level of job recruitment and then business school too in the example I posed), the outcome at the end will be magnified, people will get denied/rewarded with results they did/didn't earn (relative to the marketplace), and it looks more and more like artificially picking winners.

    And the riposte to this may be "so? black people, on average, come from disadvantaged backgrounds vis a vis white people." Okay... so then what are we calling for? Redistributions of wealth and resources from whites to blacks? This starts to look like reparations. But this leaves out latinos and Asians... what if we re-introduce them back into this (after all, they are involved in the game of affirmative action and shouldn't be omitted from the equation in the first place)? This starts to look like socialistic racial balancing.
     
  8. awwwSNAP

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    The voice of God would like you all to stop calling each other black and white.

    Maybe this is naive because I'm just about as whitebread middle class as can be, but is it impossible that TELLING black kids growing up that they are disenfranchised is making them disenfranchised? Why should these kids even bother when they have been told their whole life that they'll never make it because the white man is keeping them down (I'm looking at you NaS). Of course racism still exists, and having lived in the south my whole life I've witnessed a fair share of it. But I don't think anyone can deny that as time passes, it's diminishing. Growing up in Georgia I honestly haven't met terribly many straight up racists in my generation (I'm 22). Of course there are some, but is the small minority of racist white people going to one day be powerful enough to keep down an entire race of people?

    I say this at least two thirds-jokingly, so be gentle with the red dots, but how can white people as a whole stop keeping black people down?
     
    #108 awwwSNAP, Jun 14, 2011
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  9. Disgustipated

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    This thread has covered and recovered so much common ground that it's starting to get a little convoluted.

    What I'm going to say here walks on a knife edge, so hear me out and let it sink in with some thought. It's not said to justify anything, but rather an attempt to make some dispassionate observations. Unfortunately, this is just one of those topics that provoke strongly emotional responses.

    Adverse reactions to non-like groups is natural. That sounds clunky, but I wanted to take inflammatory descriptors out. I think, genetically, we're wired to be distrustful and sometimes outright violent to other groups. At an instinctual level this is prevalent in nature. Many species will kill on site anything that looks different or is not identified as "one of them" - sometimes on a species level, sometimes on a particular grouping/hive/family unit level.

    It's only when you add reason to this, as with humans, that you get the opportunity to overcome it. Likewise, in a reasoned being, it has the opportunity to become cruelty. My point is, it's not necessarily a learned thing - discrimination is, I think, a starting point. And the reason I make that point is to make the argument for two things:

    - Discrimination is never going to be wiped out while there exist differences capable of being perceived; and
    - Any method used to overcome or compensate for it cannot "fight fire with fire" to be successful globally.

    I think AA falls foul of the second point. At it's worst (which I know we've discounted, but for illustration purposes) it could be used for getting unsuitable people into positions they shouldn't be in. This happens. Perhaps not on a large scale, but it does happen. At it's best, it creates a defining preference between two equally qualified people to promote one over the other. The point of that is that the person who lost out will have their inherent instinct fed and this will perpetuate the discrimination.

    I hypothesising here, but it's based on some comments I've seen from those that have been the "victim" of AA. They lost out "because they're X" or "because the other person is Y". This feeds the division. Losing is personal, and I've yet to see anyone saw "they deserved to get it over me because they're X." We can make arguments that we should look at this from a society level instead of personal, but the thing is that discrimination starts at an individual level. Humans don't have a hive mind type setup. We operate largely on a social interaction scale, but that is still the sum of many individual units.

    This is where history ties in. Yes, we have had major instances of discrimination within our lifetimes. They still exist today. And, no doubt, they will somewhere exist tomorrow. It's already been stated that we can't punish the children for the sins of the parents. When you mix that with overlapping instances and timelines, it becomes a difficult thing. Throw in the notion of the individual being judged against the society in which they live, and it becomes even more tricky. There are always going to be people who will feel that they are the victim of circumstances for which they have no responsibility at a personal level. Preconception, stereotype and historical bias, which will unfortunately always exist, automatically impact the individual no matter which side of the issue they happen to find themselves on. The example given above of the use of certain names gives an illustration of that.

    I haven't got an answer to the problem, except to say that swinging bias from one side of neutral to the other side is not an acceptable answer.
     
  10. Beefy Phil

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    I think you misunderstand my point. I don't know conclusively whether AA works or doesn't, and the numbers I mentioned weren't intended to prove it either way. What they do demonstrate is the continued existence of white advantage. Even in a recession, whites are better off than blacks. Whites may struggle, but they won't struggle as much as, and certainly not because of minorities. And that's the crux of my whole point: there is no merit in blaming one's lack of advancement (as some clearly do) on possibly ineffective social policies that seek to advance a portion of our society that, by the numbers, has continued to lag behind socially, politically and economically. Someone who does is guilty of aiming at a convenient target, not a rational one, and their motivations are suspect.

    Where's your rant against the numerous applicants from wealthy backgrounds whose fathers buy them into these colleges every year? Do they not "besmirch" the reputation of Harvard? Is that not a blatant demonstration of social injustice? Do rich idiots "dirty the pool" any less than poor idiots? Yes, they do. Yes, it is. No, they don't. But you won't ever see the kind of passionate argument against donation-based acceptances or heredity-based hiring that you will against affirmative action. That shit is just a fact of life, right? Nothing suspicious there. No, sir.

    By all means, though, keep thinking that you're defending the quality of our national institutions with your naive bullshit. Also, I appreciate the petty insult. It really adds weight to your argument.
     
  11. Frank

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    To be fair, most of those rich white kids have nepotism based jobs ready for them right out of college. That looks pretty nice when repping your school's employment rates.
     
  12. Nom Chompsky

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    I'm no longer sober, so sorry if that derails this thread. I don't think this is strictly true for a couple reasons:

    As I said before, my gf works in admissions for a somewhat selective school, so I watch her make decisions and it doesn't really go like this.

    This wasn't personally true in my experience. #Humblebrag alert, but I didn't get into my top choice school, and I have to think that I would have gotten in if I had shown up with a score 200+ points over the maximum.


    Speaking of the college thing, I think that it's a good thing for colleges to seek diversity. They do it in all sorts of ways, already: as the old saying goes, the quickest way into Yale is to learn to play the oboe. I think that being exposed to different kinds of people is a good thing, and I've been around enough admissions people to know that colleges don't just make decisions on a case by case basis, they think about the overall makeup of the class. If you think about it, playing soccer well doesn't make you any more qualified to be a Harvard student than being a Latino, but Harvard thinks its worthwhile to admit both, and that both will ultimately strengthen the experience they offer.

    I feel like this bear mentioning, so I will: if we're talking college admissions, I don't think that I personally should benefit from the types of affirmative action programs I advocate. The single largest advantage a student can have in the college process is good advising, and any student that has that has a huge leg up over any number of similarly qualified students.
     
  13. LessTalk MoreStab

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    So your saying having large numbers of wealthy well connected individuals who have been raised into high society is harmful to an institution? Unless we're talking about the British armed forces circa 1918 I’d say you are missing the fucking point.

    I smells me a filthy red commie with a rose coloured brain!
     
  14. Nom Chompsky

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    So you're saying graduating large numbers of intelligent and successful minorities poised to make a difference in their societies is harmful to an institution? Unless we're talking about the Richmond Howitzers circa 1862 there might be a point you're missing as well.

    I spy a confused whitey clinging desperately to the vestiges of privilege!



    Is whitey racist? I just wanted to add a color to complete the parallelism. You know how it is with parody.
     
  15. Beefy Phil

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    Yes.
     
  16. Crown Royal

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    Just call me Topher

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    All of you shaddup and get along already. We all know that by having a beer with a stupid white cop and a scorned black professor, Obama mediated all former issues and ended racism forever. Therefore, we all love each other.

    Accept it.
     
  17. Nettdata

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    Let's not get into Political shit now. Don't make any statement about particular politicians that would incite a response along the same lines, thus devolving into a shitfest.

    I'm actually impressed with how non-fucked this thread has stayed so far, so let's not fuck it up now.

    We don't have AA for threads around here, you know...
     
  18. Volo

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    There is truth in the first part of your statement. I got lucky enough to have parents with some brains in their heads and hope in their hearts, and although they were perfectly honest with me about what kinds of challenges I'd face as a minority, they never told me to just lie down and give up, or to assume that I'm going to be kept down by someone else. Largely because of their influence, I kept my chin up. Now, I had some down moments, some minor, some harsh, and while my life to date hasn't been all sunshine and roses, I can proudly hold my head up high for not having used my race as a crutch for my shortcomings. Yeah, there have been some times where being a prairie-nigger has kept me from getting a job, or gotten my ass kicked, but I'll be dead in the cold ground before I stop admitting my own mistakes and dropping the blame anywhere but where it belongs. That is what my parents taught me, and it stuck.

    Friends of mine while growing up? Not the same story for all of them. The whites mostly turned out fine. The indians and the métis? I had to cut a lot of them out of my life because they'd had it pounded in their heads that trying at all was a futile effort. Their parents lived their lives on welfare cheques and handouts, drank themselves sick, blew off jobs, and never once took an ounce of responsibility for their actions. All of that miserable bullshit fucking poisoned their children. A few of these kids really tried, and I mean really tried, to stay in school, and not be a bum, and hold a job even if it was just a lowly fuckin' paper-route, but because they're surrounded by the mentality that life holds nothing for them outside of being slaves in the "white world", they gave up. If any have kids of their own, the cycle will likely continue, save for a few possible exceptions who break the mold. We can only hope.

    There's only so much negative shit that one can take before succumbing, especially when you're still young and don't know what the world really holds for you yet. Not everyone has an iron will to defend themselves with, and sooner or later those accusing glances from your peers, and the lack of support from parents who don't believe you can carve out the life you want for yourself will get to you, and you'll slip between the cracks.

    And that doesn't even take into account the damage done by those who glorify this mickey mouse shit.
     
  19. Nom Chompsky

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    I want to point out that, in my humble opinion, the treatment of Native Americans in this country is one of the worst things in history. The only reason it doesn't get mentioned more is because WE KILLED SO MANY OF THEM. That's like the most fucking insidious shit ever. I don't care if they all take my spot at Harvard.

    And by Harvard, I mean the University of Phoenix Online. Go, Whitefish!
     
  20. Lasersailor

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    I wasn't addressing Affirmative Action from the pointed of the jilted redneck who didn't get his dream job because less qualified blacks got in besides him.

    I was addressing it from those inside the company, and those that are customers of the company.

    Would you be a customer of a company which for any reason, known or otherwise, announced that they weren't going to hire the best applicants for the job? If you're stopping in at Wendy's, you'll probably not give it a second thought.

    However if you found out that the company fixing your brakes on your car uses Affirmative Action, would you be concerned? How about your appendix removal?

    The thought that you are being serviced by the less qualified in a skilled position is poison to the trust in a company.
     
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