Adult Content Warning

This community may contain adult content that is not suitable for minors. By closing this dialog box or continuing to navigate this site, you certify that you are 18 years of age and consent to view adult content.

Tuesday Sober Thread: All In The Name Of Diversity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Blue Dog, Jun 14, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog
    Expand Collapse
    Absentee Mod

    Reputation:
    64
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,657
    Location:
    South Louisiana
    I heard about this video on the radio this morning, and it got me thinking:


    It raising an interesting question of how it is somehow okay for diversity to only applied to certain things, while at the same time ignoring the cause if 1)it is personally beneficial, 2) it has no effect on your personal life, or 3) it does not flow parallel to your individual ideology. The argument of some in the video is that affirmative action shouldn't be applied to athletics because "the best person should play" is the EXACT same argument of those who are opposed to the idea of making race a deciding factor in other areas such as college admission and hiring policies (which is the whole point of the video- to get people thinking about certain hypocrisies and double standards prevalent in society today).

    Personally, I don't care for affirmative action, because it goes 100% against the very thing that civil rights activists have fought for all of these years- that a person be judged by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin. The way things are now, people are saying that it is okay to judge SOME people by their race, but not others. Give THIS person a job over THAT one- that'll make us diverse and save our ass in court! Let THIS person into school OVER THAT one- nobody will question OUR diversity! Why can't people hire the most qualified person, the one who will do the best job for the company, regardless of what color they are? Why does some friggin' politically correct quota take precedence over the qualifications of incoming students?

    I don't know, it just seems a little silly to me that somehow its okay to discriminate for SOME things, and not others.

    Focus

    Affimative action- your thoughts? For it or against it? Has it always been a bunch of horseshit? Is it one of the greatest accomplishments of the civil rights movement? Or was it useful and a good thing in its time, but we've gotten to a point where it is starting to become an obsolete and outdated policy?

    As with all sober thread- play nice, or go home
     
    #1 Blue Dog, Jun 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  2. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    242
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,158
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    I'm pretty much in favor of affirmative action. I didn't watch that whole video but athletics and things like college admissions or job hiring are two different animals. With athletics I don't think AA is necessary because it's pretty easy to distunguish the most qualified people for the team; if tryout A makes 12/15 shots while tryout B only makes 8/15 shots it's pretty obvious who should be on the team. With things like admissions or employment what determines who is best qualified is much more nebulous and vague, so I believe AA is necessary to a point because internalized and/or institutional racism certainly still exists.
     
  3. Crown Royal

    Crown Royal
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    818
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Messages:
    19,710
    Location:
    London, Ontario
    Naturally, students will always lean left towards affirmative action because they haven't gone out to look for a real job yet. Then, some minds will be changed.

    I am not a fan of it. I've never seen race, so the most qualified person should have the job. Period. Not debatable in my eyes. The problem with not being a fan of it is that there are still one-dimensional fucktards out there that DO judge people by their origins, and will put their resume at the bottom of the pile. Fucking shallow.

    However, hiring and underqualified people just because you don't want to step on anybody toes is ALSO shallow. Of course it depends on said carrer, but I want to know the fireman trying to rescue me can also CARRY my 200 pound ass out of the house because he was the right person for the job.

    Such a touchy subject. Please don't turn the flames up.
     
  4. Tuesday

    Tuesday
    Expand Collapse
    Disturbed

    Reputation:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    360
    In an ideal world the best candidate would always be chosen, regardless. But that's not the case. And there are dickheaded people responsible for hiring employees, who still use their own ignorant biases and preconceptions to toss someone's cv in the trash heap. It sucks, and AA is one way we have tried to minimize instances like that. It's definitely not the best, but it's something. I do think it has been abused, and I do question if it is still needed today. Like Blue Dog, I abhor shit like hiring quotas, but I really can't offer any suggestions to improve and fix the system.

    But hey, I'm male middle class and white.

     
    #4 Tuesday, Jun 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  5. Chellie

    Chellie
    Expand Collapse
    Disturbed

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    454
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I'm sure I'm going to get some hate for this, but I think affirmative action is at best useless, and at worst, actively harmful in particular situations. Keep in mind that I am speaking only of gender based AA in this post, because as a white woman, it's what I'm familiar with. In fields such as law enforcement, fire fighting, military, etc. I disagree whole heartedly with women serving if they cannot pass the same basic training and testing as the men do. If you can go all GI Jane and pass the same training, then by all means, serve your people with pride. But if you can't, then I'm sorry sweetheart, it's not discrimination based on gender, it's discrimination based on the fact that you cannot perform the basic physical requirements of the job. Those requirements are set in place not only for your safety, but the safety of all around you. The concept of affirmative action will not be horribly comforting as I die in a fire because a woman - while trying her damnedest, I'm sure - could not get me over her shoulder and out of my burning house.
     
  6. GTE

    GTE
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    251
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,221
    I think AA served a purpose at one time in history but has become out dated. Any company who doesn't want to hire the better person for the job based on their skin color will eventually be passed up by their competitors who will take the best person they can find.

    On the reverse side, I'd feel like shit if I got my job based off my skin color. "Well GTE, you aren't as qualified and didn't rank as high on the testing but we're giving you the job because you are X race and we have to."

    And anytime AA comes up, I always think of the New Haven fire dept who because they didn't have enough minority firefighters pass the exams, just decided to promote no one. Thankfully the wrongs were righted after taking the reverse discrimination case to the Supreme Court.
     
  7. Frebis

    Frebis
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    288
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,253
    What about in college admissions?

    We have test to determine who gets in and who gets scholarships. Yet the most qualified person often gets passed up because the minority standards are lower. Thank you affirmative action!

    *In case you are curious, yes I am very bitter I had to pay for my college while an African American friend of mine that had worse grades and a lower ACT score got a scholarship.
     
  8. Frank

    Frank
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    3,349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I'm pretty much against any laws that force a certain behavior no matter how noble the underlying reason.

    I also think that the laws are counterproductive in the corporate world, If you have a company where the brass is racist but is forced to hire from the entire population you're allowing them to seek out the best talent overall. If they are left to their own devices and only hire white people, there's an implicit penalty because they are not picking from the entire pool and limiting themselves by not hiring the best people for the job for stupid reasons.

    Also, if management is racist, would a minority really have a good time working there?
     
  9. PIMPTRESS

    PIMPTRESS
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    79
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    3,239
    Location:
    Denver-ish

    I agree, as a white woman. There are a great many things that women can do the same, if not better than a man. Firefighting may not be one of them. Piloting an F-22 could be. Running a country could be.

    I have experienced some sexism when I was breaking horses, old cowboys weren't sure a girl could do it. But they always handed me a check with a smile when I was done.

    I do experience racism from an "odd" source, my boss at the restaurant. He always says that a table "could be trouble" and a quick look will confirm that they are black or indian. He always warns a server if they are seated with a gay couple, stating that they have "had trouble" with these "creeps" before. It's negative and absurd, he always comes and makes sure he was right, asking how the table in question were. I always stress how they were like any other fucking table, but he just won't get it.
     
  10. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    242
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,158
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Certainly, AA isn't perfect, and some people are going to get the short end of the stick because of it, but I believe it still does more good than harm.

    It's actually more complex than that. True, if management is racist (or sexist, ageist, or whatever-ist) a firm will likely suffer for having discriminatory hiring policies, but the sad truth is that if the employees [as a whole] or the customers are prejudiced, then a firm might compelled to exclude a certain group from employment to minimize loss of productivity or sales. So AA may be absolutely necessary in that scenario.
     
  11. lust4life

    lust4life
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,562
    Location:
    Deepinthehearta, TX
    Timely, as I'm taking a required course in counseling in a multicultural society this summer. I am judged as being the recipient of white privilege by people who don't know anything about me or my background, yet AA kept me out of one of my top college choices. A classmate in HS had SAT scores about 250 points lower than me and was two quintiles behind me in class rank. He was accepted to said school, I was not. What really burns about it is, he never finished.

    Am I supposed to feel privileged for having that life experience?
     
  12. Guy Fawkes

    Guy Fawkes
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,207
    Location:
    Nor'east USA
    I loathe affirmative action. I want the best qualified person to get the job, position, "spot", etc every single fucking time. Anything else is unacceptable and a mistake imo.

    I've seen some of my customers go down the tubes because not only did their business change but also because they were competing against companies that were subsidized by the government because the ownership is qualified as a "minority". In some cases the second company is worse run, not nearly as efficient but stays in business because companies/customers are pushed towards doing business with them.

    I also have a number of friends who are police, fire fighters, etc and they have horror stories about how affirmative action is fucking up the ranks and lowering the standards in some cases just because of skin color. Ridiculous.
     
  13. bewildered

    bewildered
    Expand Collapse
    Deeply satisfied pooper

    Reputation:
    706
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,156
    When you're running a business, you make hiring choices based on what will be most beneficial. If you hire a white retard over the qualified black guy, then you deserve to lose money or get behind because your choice was illogical. If you are a business owner and you have to choose between a young, smart person and an old, smart person who will probably retire within 5 years, I believe it is completely and ethically within the business's rights to choose the young person. Their choice then would not be hate motivated, but done purely from a business standpoint.

    I agree completely with what the other ladies have said, Chellie in particular. Sorry, but if you want to be a lumberjack, you better be able to do everything everyone else can and not expect special favors because you are female.

    And you know what? I wouldn't want to get hired by some guy because of AA. If he really didn't want to hire me but was forced to, how well do you think we're going to get along down the line? I want to be hired on my merits.
     
  14. Frank

    Frank
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    6
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    3,349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Are you saying that if you have a product that is almost exclusively consumed by racists or a company is staffed by racists, that our only choice is to force them to allow minorities to work there? You think that's a better solution than having minorities stay the fuck out of that industry or company?

    This pretty much sums up my point.
     
  15. Frebis

    Frebis
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    288
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,253
    I just hope that AA will help me get my dream job at the FUBU corporate office.
     
  16. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    969
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Screw what AA has become. Like a ton of other things that started out with a good intent, it's been turned into a blind, lumbering beast being ridden by one eyed fanatics who can't see past the ends of their own noses.

    Here's the mantra that should be repeated, ad nauseum, for all circumstances - "the right person, with the right abilities for the right job". Things like gender, race, age and religion should be irrelevant unless they preclude you from doing the job (ie ability). Set the standards required to get across the line and make them concrete. If you don't meet them, you don't qualify. They should be objective and tied to the task, not subjective and changed depending on the person. That's horseshit.

    This is obviously a ludicrous example, but what if it was decided that while everyone else needed a medical degree to be a surgeon certain concessions would be made for some minorities and they would be allowed to operate with only having a first aid certificate? Are you going to be happy for them to cut you open?

    I'm all for giving people opportunities, but the practical outcome of AA seems to be inflicting a handicap on anyone who doesn't fit the disadvantaged demographic. Put another way, they're actually being rewarded for underachieving.

    The topic can be argued to any extent, but for me it boils down to a simple premise. The position to be filled doesn't give a shit who you are and what you look like; it just needs to be performed. The person who is best capable of doing that should be the one who gets the opportunity to do so.
     
  17. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    242
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,158
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    First of all, why is there this assumption that anyone who got a job due to affirmative action is automatically less qualified than the person who didn't get the job? That's basically presuming anyone who's of a protected class is automatically inferior to the white/man/heterosexual/etc. That in and of itself is prejudiced thinking.

    But more importantly, even if otherwise more-qualified people lose opportunities to less-qualified ones because of AA, well, too fucking bad. Is it really the expectation that AA has to be perfect, that not one white (man, blah, you get the point) person anywhere can ever unfairly be given the short end of the rope, or else AA is a terrible miscarriage of justice? That's absolutely thinking from a position of cultural privilege. Yes, AA isn't perfect. Can you think of something better?

    Absolutely. Being in business does not entitle you the rights to engage in whatever practices you want in the pursuit of maximum profits.

    Really, so that's how you think it works? "Hey Bob, the EEOC says we gotta hire a black guy, so just go ahead and hire the first black you see on the street. They're all the same anyway." There it is again, the assumption that anyone who gets a job/contract due to AA is unqualified for it. You want to know how well you're going to get along? Well unless he's a hardcore racist if you can get the job done you'll probably get along fine. Honestly, in all of the hiring situations I've been in the difference between candidate #1 and candidate #2 have been pretty damn small. I've never seen a situation where the number 2 guy so blatently unqualified that hiring him would ensue a disaster.
     
  18. bewildered

    bewildered
    Expand Collapse
    Deeply satisfied pooper

    Reputation:
    706
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,156
    You're assuming they are the same. And let me tell you, people are not mass produced. No two are the same. Based on experience, education, and life experience, it is up to the person hiring to decide who is best on the job. Something as superficial as race should not even be in the cards. With AA, it suddenly is.
     
  19. Frebis

    Frebis
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    288
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,253
    Just out of curiosity, are you black or are you a rich white college student that has no experience in the real world? I can't quite narrow it down.
     
  20. bewildered

    bewildered
    Expand Collapse
    Deeply satisfied pooper

    Reputation:
    706
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,156
    Are you serious? How can you enter a debate with this LACK of logic? That's not even the point of AA, to give under qualified people a chance.

    Your way of thinking would allow the breakdown of the free market, completely. People are supposed to strive to be better and greater. This is absolutely no incentive to ANYone to try to better themselves.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.