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Tiger Mother or Fluffy Bunny Mother?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jrussellmikkelsen, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. cynismus

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    Where would all of you rate this mother, who wants a refund on her daughter's outrageous preschool tuition?

    Personally, I don't think she's entitled to anything since I can't imagine that the school would make any guarantees whatsoever.
     
  2. tempest

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    I think Angel brings up an important point. She said that she has always felt loved. In my family, I always felt that love was somehow conditional, and to be perfectly honest, I never felt like I was worthy of it.

    Frylock and others have mentioned that children that grow up with this kind of rearing find it difficult to be creative. That may be somewhat true, but my sister is definitely the exception. In fact, she's the exception to many of these rules. My sister was always the "good" one growing up, while I was busy rebelling. Went to college, majored in English and then a Masters in Design. She's actually very creative. She seems to have a healthy relationship with our mom. My sister doesn't believe in marriage and recently had a child with her long time boyfriend (who's white), which much to my surprise, my mom didn't freak out about. In fact, my mom took it quite well.

    Not sure why our relationships are so different. Could be a male/female thing, or maybe it's just an attitude differennce.
     
  3. PIMPTRESS

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    I had a sort of Tiger Mother, in her religious ferver I was required to study the bible for hours a week as well as all of the literature the JW's produced. We had meetings 3 times a week, I was required to participate at least three times (raise my hand and answer a question or have an inspirational thought about the material being covered). If I failed, I was punished with being grounded and/or "spankings" with various tools. I always had marks on my legs, back and ass.

    I was also required to put 60-90 hours A MONTH in service. Yeah, PIMPTRESS was knockin on doors with a godamned Watchtower.

    I can't imagine expecting my boys to adhere to this sort of radical zealotry. That may not be a word...

    The best part is this- I never, ever believed that shit. I saw so many holes in their theories. SO I basically learned to bullshit like no other.

    I haven't spoken to my mother in years, she saw me with my boys at the grocery store a couple years ago and walked by us like we were strangers. She can go fuck herself while waiting for her paradise.

    I guess I still have some anger....
     
  4. MoreCowbell

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    This may just be a restatement of what Frylock was saying but in my experience academically and professionally, this sort of person is much more likely to achieve competence, but less likely to achieve brilliance. Because while the former can be drilled into you, the latter requires a mental flexibility and creative flair that is just foreign to their learning style. They may get a better physics grade than their peers, but they won't go on to win the Nobel Prize.
     
  5. ghettoastronaut

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    Interesting related anecdote: one of my girlfriend's friends decided to take the early childhood education path for university instead of the standard life sciences and then med school life plan every other Asian child is born into.

    Her parents kicked her out of the house and withdrew financial support that she otherwise would have had. Amy Chua is a fucking amateur.
     
  6. bebop007

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    I think it's a point worth restating. A parenting style like this nets you a dedicated worker bee, and little else. I saw it all the time in my undergrad/grad accounting courses. When kids raised like this had professors who taught by rote/memorization/straight out of the book, these kids flourished. But if a professor asked a more figurative, theoretical, or overall outside the box question/situation........nothing. And god help you if you got stuck with one of these kids in a group. You've got a workhorse, sure, but not much else. No leadership skills whatsoever. Little ability to coordinate or plan with other group members. And, at best, functional interpersonal skills.

    I'd let someone like this pore over a few stacks of excel spreadsheets, but would I trust them to talk to clients or even give them any considerable management or supervisory role? Not likely. But if your pride is fixated on how hard and not how smart you work, then I guess it doesn't really matter to them.

    Chua's kids might be able to replicate Mozart, or Bach, or Liszt when they play, but I doubt they'd have any capacity or ability to compose on their own. Liszt could play a piano like a madman, but he could also compose among the best of them. But hey, if you're happy to have your kids do nothing more than replicate someone else's genius and offer none of their own, then who am I to judge?
     
  7. Chirpy

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    I don't think the Tiger Mother is only specific to those of Asian descent. I think it's more of a community thing. I grew up in a pretty strict Greek household very similar to the one described in the article. However, we were allowed to be social, as long as it was within the Greek community. I still remember the fights my parents had over my sister wanting to be a cheerleader and the one time she asked to go to a Friday night football game--she never asked again. I'm surprised my oldest sister was allowed to go to her high school prom. Lucky for me, I have a pretty big mouth and strong personality and learned how to play the game from a young age. Plus my parents softened by the time I got around to high school so I was able to be a bit more social with my "American friends."

    The point is that as we were growing up, we certainly suscribed to the "it takes a villiage" mentality. Nobody wanted to have shit grades or screw up because when you went to church on Sunday or to the Greek dance on Saturday night, everyone in the community would know about it. And believe me, pissed off Greek people always have something to say whether you're their kid or not. It worked. If I look at my friends who grew up with me, it's incredible to see how well we are all doing. I regard their parents as my parents and am just as proud to update them on how I'm doing whenever I see them. When I was in a state of limbo and "just a bartender," I never wanted to talk to any of them...not because I was embarrassed (I was putting myself through school) but because I knew that I could and should be doing better. My parents (and my friends' parents) worked their asses off to give us great educations and lives and it was tough to look them in the eye knowing that I was pissing on their achievements. Anyway, what parent wants their kid to be the fuck up? I'd pay dearly at home if that were me. And while I'm in a current state of struggle, I have no doubt that all my education and reputation will pay off for me in the end.

    Professionally (and really, as an American) if I could have every kid care as much about their education as those who live with Tiger Mothers, I'd be one happy camper and one satisfied soul. The problem is that many Western counrties have become enablers which in the long run only hurts the child. We're raising a bunch of fucking pussies who aren't learning the simplest of coping skills. I'll give my case in point in an email my good friend sent me the other day from a parent whose kid was caught cheating on a test. The kid literally sleeps through class, rarely opens a book, and has a smart ass reply every time you ask him to do something. You'd expect the parent to be embarrassed by the cheating , but:

    Rawr. Tiger roar.
     
  8. KIMaster

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    Honestly, it's a very complicated topic, and inevitably, what happens is oversimplification and projection from both sides.

    For instance, even the term "Tiger Mother" is very misleading. Are we talking about Asian-style parenting? Or just strict parenting in general? Even within each of those, there are so many different variables to consider.

    Personally, I disagree with a lot of the specifics of the "standard" Asian approach (although even that differs from one specific culture to the next). Forcing them to play an instrument if they don't want to is dumb. (However, forcing them to learn the language, or do basic arithmetic, skills every human being needs, is not) Rote memorization, while it's a great way to obtain perfect marks in trivial high school classes, becomes a problem for an Asian student when he is tackling more difficult, abstract courses.

    Beating a kid? Again, a difficult question. I think there is nothing wrong with a certain amount of discipline, but beating someone for not playing a piano piece perfectly? A good way to produce fantastic results, but probably awful for the happiness of the child involved!

    That being said, I do agree with the general sentiment of the approach; be kind, loving, and supportive towards your child, allow them to find worthwhile interests on their own, but also be tough, and expect great things from them. You are their parent, not their best friend.

    We can argue about it until we're blue in the face, but clearly, comparing the two extremes, that of being very strict, or being very lax and friendly, the former seems to lead to much better results than the latter does.

    I think the ideal approach is between those, but closer to the strict side.
     
  9. MoreCowbell

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    I'm curious: do you notice a tendency for "Tiger Moms" to be more fervent "helicopter parents"? That is, are they more likely to pester you about the minutia of the kid's work and your classroom, and interfere with what you're trying to do?
     
  10. Chirpy

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    That's a tough one to answer because kids of what I'd consider to be "Tiger Moms" are already schitzo about their grades. So it never actually gets to the point where the mom has to step in because the kid has already taken it upon him/herself to come to me with a question. Those kids are trained...they don't want to go home with crap grades and face the music. It's actually kind of nice when I see a kid take responsibility for their grades even if it is out of fear or whatever.

    I would say that Tiger Moms are the ones who pester me mostly about keeping grades updated in the online gradebook and will certainly argue if there's an issue with a report card. Don't get me wrong...I have some absolutely psycho moms who must just hit refresh every five minutes and then call me when it seems as though I've stepped away from my desk for a hot second. But mostly I find them to be supportive of what I do and simply stay informed...they don't have to hellicopter...they just roar at home.
     
  11. KIMaster

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    Thinking about it more, the parenting style used in the US is way more unusual than the "Tiger" style. (Still don't know what the fuck that means specifically)

    Being tough on your kids is the norm throughout Asia, most of Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, and Central America. Obviously, the emphasis on education, and even what type of education is different across those cultures, but the general mindset is the same.

    Really, it's only a certain portion of the US as well as Western Europe that has embraced this New Age "be your child's best friend, and treat them as an equal!" mentality. It's a fascinating approach, and I'm sure there are is an army of shrinks, doctors, pseudo-doctors, and "child experts" telling us it's the right way, and that the previous approach for the last several thousands years has been totally wrong.

    Problem is, the results have been less than encouraging.
     
  12. Crown Royal

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    "Pseudo" doctors, yes. And ALL "Child Experts" are pseudo. Actualy, "hacks" is more the word. The belong on the same boat as faith/energy healers, psychics and traditional or "natural"medicine gurus.

    I wouldn't call it a fascinating appraoch as much as I would call it a humiliating one. You can still be your child's best friend while being the dominant and fair overseer in their life, it's not like that's difficult multi-tasking for a parent. In fact, it's their fucking JOB. Parents blame everybody but themselves nowadays for these Me Generation little shits. Did you eve take into consideration that maybe, as a parent, you suck?

    That's right, you SUCK. It's not TV, it's not iPods, it's not Duke Nukem. It's you. You suck. And so does your kid.
     
  13. shimmered

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    Psychological beatings are every bit as effective as physical ones.

    I believe in placing expectations on my kids and simply...expecting they meet or exceed them. It's not something we dwell on, it's something that just IS.

    I'd love to say that works with all three of them, but my girl is higher maintenance than my boys, and God help me but I've yet to find her trigger. Her motivation eludes me, for sure.


    Discipline in our house is a loss of privileges, a restriction of boundaries, extra chores, and yes, a good swat on the ass when need be.

    Kids I come in contact with rarely challenge me because I intimidate them.
     
  14. shimmered

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    That's what I wanted to ask this mother of a 15 year old last night.
    Her child called me a bitch because I wouldn't let her run amok. I called her out on it, and mom intervened saying "It's okay, she's my daughter, it's fine."

    No bitch, it is NOT fine. Your little 15 year old fat cockblocker in training just called an adult doing her job a bitch for no other reason than because said adult stopped her from doing what she wanted to do. It is NOT FINE. It's inexcusable and absolutely 100% on YOUR FUCKING SHOULDERS to handle up on that shit. When I asked her mother if the girl was talking to me, or to her (the mom), she shrugged and said she wasn't sure.

    Sweet Jesus my head nearly exploded. I wanted to jump across the goddamned counter and smack the little tramp in the face.
     
  15. KIMaster

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    To be fair, being your child's best friend and being a parent that prepares and teaches them properly are largely mutually exclusive. The child might still love you deeply throughout, but the parent should not treat them as a "friend".

    I remember once when I was 12, I called my father my "friend", and he turned to me, and said "No, I'm not your friend...I'm your father".

    Anyways, one thing that surprises me in this topic is the assumption that all relationships with "Tiger" parents worsen as the child goes through adulthood. I don't know whether the fuck he was a "Tiger" or not, (what an idiotic term...) but my father was very tough on me and expected a lot throughout my life. As I grew older and older, I only loved him more, and he respected me more and more as his equal.

    Considering how many children are on bad terms with one or both their parents overall, it seems doubly strange to blame it on a strict parenting style with Asians.

    Then again, if an Asian kid had to spend 3 hours a day for 10 years playing a musical instrument that made them physically sick, which won't improve either their earning power or happiness later on in life, yeah, I can see how they would be resentful.

    Edit

    I remember I took exactly one piano class in my entire life, during which time I was painfully bored, constantly running around and interrupting the teacher to where she almost had a breakdown in the middle of class. My parents then decided I didn't need to take any musical classes. Even now, 18 years later, I remember who happy I was.
     
  16. Kels

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    This book and the publicity around it are designed to drive the east vs. west debate, but I don't feel thats the real issue here.

    Case in point: Amy Chua had a nanny's help in raising the girls.
    Note this isn't mentioned in the book or in the debate surrounding it: it's not part of how the debate is being framed.

    This case is more an example of a wealthy American woman with high standards (Yale Law?) forcing her children into the mold she wants (the perfect talented little students who get into the best schools because anything else makes her look bad) than it is a Chinese mother pushing education her children because it's something to be highly valued.
     
  17. KIMaster

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    That's quite a series of assumptions on your part, too.

    For starters, simply having a nanny doesn't invalidate what she wrote; how is it different from having an involved grandparent? Do we even know the role of said nanny? Secondly, most "wealthy American women" I know were/are very hands-off and free in their child(s)' upbringing and education.

    From what I've seen, they aren't that much more strict than normal, unwealthy American parents.
     
  18. Nom Chompsky

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    Then again, if you're too rigidly demanding of your children, they might end up tightly wound later. That could manifest itself in doing stuff like wearing jeans at the gym, or in angry 7 paragraph messageboard screeds about why Casablanca is a thoroughly mediocre film and Balabanov's Brother is the epitome of crime films.

    I'm not a parent, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but the children I've seen that are the best behaved and most productive aren't a product of parents who instill fear in them. They have parents who take time to explain things, and don't rely on television OR the unending threat of physical violence to get their points across. It's not about iPods or cane switches, it's about setting boundaries and making sure your child understands them. Which is no easy task; hence the prevalence of the extremes.
     
  19. KIMaster

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    You're confusing me with someone else with the last one; I haven't even watched the Russian "Brother" film, let alone think it's the epitome of anything.

    Those aren't mutually exclusive at all; you can explain things to the child while being either strict or lax.
     
  20. Nom Chompsky

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    Silly me.

    I never said they were. I said that parents who rely on outside forces to raise their children -- whether they fall into the strict or lax camp -- have a lower chance of raising happy, self-actualized kids.