Adult Content Warning

This community may contain adult content that is not suitable for minors. By closing this dialog box or continuing to navigate this site, you certify that you are 18 years of age and consent to view adult content.

The Association: 2012-2013

Discussion in 'Sports Board' started by Trakiel, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Nom Chompsky

    Nom Chompsky
    Expand Collapse
    Honorary TiBette

    Reputation:
    68
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    4,706
    Location:
    we out

    Why is he an idiot? Next season he can get something like 5/78 from the Rockets, as opposed to taking 4/55 from the Thunder. He shouldn't be faulted because the team offered him less than he's worth.

    It's rarely good for a championship-caliber team to lose their second best player and get back one of the worst defensive players in the league.

    That being said, I'm interested to see how Kevin Martin does in a complimentary role. Terrible defender, but one of the most efficient offensive players in the league.
     
  2. Parker

    Parker
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    90
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    5,831
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    My ears are still ringing because every single Lakers fan had a screaming orgasm when this happened and I heard it in Chicago. I understand why they did this, but I feel like they could have waited. If they signed him to a max deal, they could have had two more runs before they ran into the salary cap by most people's projections. No reason to let him go, get someone not nearly as complete back and definitely just left them vunerable to the Lakers.
     
  3. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    I guess it depends on your definition of worth. I guess he could use that extra money to go on vacation when OKC goes deep into the playoffs.

    He's an idiot because he had the perfect role on one of the top 3 teams in the NBA. Now he gets to try and be the man on one of the also rans in the NBA.

    He can stand out there on the 3pt line all by himself and watch Jeremy Lin force shot after shot...
     
  4. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    I think after Westbrook's and Ibaka's deals, there was no room for a max deal.

    They coulda kept him this year and been distracted by it the whole season.

    They took picks because they need cheap talent.
     
  5. Nom Chompsky

    Nom Chompsky
    Expand Collapse
    Honorary TiBette

    Reputation:
    68
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    4,706
    Location:
    we out
    I think he just values different things than you THINK he should, which doesn't make him an idiot.

    Not you in this case, but people are ridiculous. Lebron takes less money to team up with better players, people complain. Harden takes more money to team with lesser players, people complain. Fans want athletes to behave more like toys than human beings sometimes.
     
  6. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    245
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Ok, according to this article the two picks OKC got are a Mav's pick that's top 20 protected until 2017, and the Hornet's pick that's protected top 3 this year, top 2 the next two years, and #1 the two years after that. It's also protected from the back end at 14, so if the pick ends up falling out of the lottery it rolls over as well. That pick becomes unprotected after 2017.

    If this is true, I'm not so hot on the Thunder's side of the trade anymore.
     
  7. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    He made his choice. To me, the difference in money is not worth the chance to win a title. To me, thats an idiot. If its not to you, then fine. Factor in that OKC can only afford to pay so much under the cap, so they were not lowballing Harden. They offered him what they could. He was their 6th man and 3rd scoring option so Im not sure what he expected.

    People criticized Lebron because he's Lebron. And Harden didnt take more money, He wasn't a free agent signing a new contract like Jeremy Lin. He gave up a very good shot at a championship for the opportunity to make more money. He bluffed and the Thunder called his bluff.

    And the Thunder were not looking to make a good trade. They were looking to unload a potential distraction before the season started and open up more cap space for cheaper talent in the future. Jeremy Lamb & Kevin Martin won't fill the entire gap, but they got a veteran presence off the bench to replace Derek Fisher and a nice young player in Lamb that they can groom to be that 3rd option. He's a good outside shooter and a little more athletic than Harden.
     
  8. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    The value to the Thunder is that they cleared cap space, eliminated a potential yearlong distraction and dealt Harden to a team that is not a threat to challenge in the Western conference.

    Draft picks in the NBA, outside the lottery, are a crap shoot. They got some decent players in return and some future ammunition to use in the draft or in a trade.

    Heres a guy that says that OKC got more for Harden that the Magic got for Howard. I think he may be a little biased, but not that far off.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/blogs/open-mike/os-mb-oklahoma-city-gets-as-much-for-james-harden-as-magic-got-for-dwight-howard-20121029,0,1703978.post" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/b ... 03978.post</a>

    And wow...heres another good article. OKC not only told Harden to take it or leave it, they told him where he was going to be traded and gave him an hour to choose. $25million is a lot to turn down, but I still think I would have stuck with OKC.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/29/harden-reportedly-devastated-by-trade-i-can-think-of-25-million-reasons-hell-get-over-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... t-over-it/</a>
     
  9. gamecocks

    gamecocks
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    129
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,415
    They didn't offer him the amount they were allowed to under the CBA. I think they offered $6 million or so less a year than they were allowed to. Add in the no income tax in Texas, and he's looking at a whole lot more per year. What I'm wondering about is why he chose to be the "man" on a bad team. I read this article a while back that was set up on him being extremely uncomfortable with that role. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7982195/the-many-faces-oklahoma-city-thunder-guard-james-harden

    I guess a few million can change that.
     
  10. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    I read somewhere that they could not offer another max deal under the new CBA, so it still had to be less. I think the max deal was 4/$60m and their final offere was 4/$53m

    Harden kinda choked in the finals last year vs the Heat. Its going to be a different story when missing a few shots might mean a loss vs missing a few shots gets you blown out.

    Ask Charles Barkley or Karl Malone how much of their money they'd give up for 1 championship.

    Thats the old argument of whose career would you rather have had: Barkley or Horry? Barkley is more money & more notoriety. Horry = 6 rings.
     
  11. Clutch

    Clutch
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    542
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,783
    Barkley, not even close. Money and fame are a lot more useful after you turn 40.
     
  12. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    I mean its not like Horry was a volunteer, he got paid too. Hes just not one of the top 50 of all time.

    I gotta think Barkley, as competitive and talkative as he is, would give up a large sum to have won just 1.

    I think Id take Barkley too. I think its better to be in the "best guy to not win one" than the "worst guy to have won one" ala Trent Dilfer discussion.
     
  13. Nom Chompsky

    Nom Chompsky
    Expand Collapse
    Honorary TiBette

    Reputation:
    68
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2010
    Messages:
    4,706
    Location:
    we out

    Also, the financial pressure on NBA players can be pretty insane.

    Have you ever tried to buy an NBA championship ring? Hint: there's a lot of them for sale, and I bet a lot of those players would gladly trade that experience for 25 million.

    Honestly, imagine if you were at a job, at a great company. A company that had a chance to do really big things, and you had a chance to be a part of it, to proudly associate yourself with that brand.

    However, you're overqualified for your role, and there's not a lot of room for growth. All the management positions are filled, and they're not opening up anytime soon. Another company offers you more money to be a chief officer. They're not doing great, but they have one of the best CEOs in the business. You don't at least think long and hard about it?

    I can see the argument for both sides, but calling either decision "idiotic" is crazy.
     
  14. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    Thats not really an applicable analogy.

    A real analogy would be, do you want to work fries for $6 an hour and have 0 responsibility OR be the manager, have to open and close, be responsible for the whole store and make $11/hr? Sometimes, all the extra pressure is not worth it. How much money is enough? Like I said, he bluffed and they called it. They even told them they were calling it. What else could they do? He is infinitely more replaceable than Ibaka or Westbrook.

    What are the chances that Harden leads the Rockets to the NBA finals in the next 5 years? He's only 23. He coulda signed again with OKC, played out that 4 years, then left to make a big payday. Maybe he wins a championship in the next 4 years with OKC.
     
  15. Binky

    Binky
    Expand Collapse
    Village Idiot

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Messages:
    17
    55 mil is only 30 after taxes, and we all know that sports players can burn through that with the quickness. With no income tax in Texas, he'll be banking ~$10m more going to Houston. He's not a veteran star with 100m+ in the bank, he's a 23 year old kid. You don't pay 10mil, more money than you or your family has ever seen, for a 4 year chance at a championship. Especially when you could have a Shaun Livingston moment and never be able to earn that much again.
     
  16. Trakiel

    Trakiel
    Expand Collapse
    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

    Reputation:
    245
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,167
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Count me among the people who think Harden should seek whatever deal that gives him the most of what he values, be it money, fame, rings, or whatever. That's what everyone else does, so why should athletes be held to a different standard?
     
  17. MoreCowbell

    MoreCowbell
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    14
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,185
    One thing to keep in mind is Harden's temperament. That is why this is surprising to me. He's never seemed like he needed to be the man. Every profile I've seen of him has suggested that he wasn't that guy in high school, hated being tht guy at ASU, and sold himself to Presti as someone who'd love to play a Pippen or Parrish kind of role. Not that I'm accusing him of dishonesty or anything. It just seemed like if anyone was suited to the role, it would have been him.

    Personally, I'm not pleased with the trade as I want to see as many top flight teams as possible, and Houston is not one. I also don't like Lamb as a NBA player based on what I've seen (dude is weaker than a seven year old after chemo, and inconsistent) and Martin is an empty scoring numbers kind of guy, so it's unclear whether OKC will ever regain its talent level of last year. Lamb is high potential, though, and who knows with those picks. I suppose the idea for Presti is that the Thunder will be maintaining or growing when the Heat and Lakers are in decline.
     
  18. Clutch

    Clutch
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    542
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,783
    I think a better comparison would be Scottie Pippen. They were contemporaries, both were among the best at their position. Pippen has rings, but Barkley is usually considered to be in a higher class of player. Pippen was never "the guy."
     
  19. MoreCowbell

    MoreCowbell
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    14
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,185
    Also, looking at Houston's roster, this is a rebuilding on an almost unprecedented scale. Chandler Parsons is the only significant returning players (Morris and Smith played under ten games at under ten minutes per game). Morey is clearly not shooting for continued mediocrity with a team of rag tag overachievers. This team is super young with only three players over 25 on its roster, and some interesting pieces in Parsons, Lin, and White. An issue I see developing is whether or not Lin and Harden play well together. They're both drive heavy an ball dominating guards.

    An underrated point is that Houston can give Harden an additional year (each team gets one "designated" five year guy, and OKC already locked up Westbrook). That's five years to let young guys develop, and cobble together additional weapons.
     
  20. Gator

    Gator
    Expand Collapse
    Emotionally Jaded

    Reputation:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,062
    I didnt make up the Horry/Barkley comparison. Ive heard it several times.

    Pippen is one of the 50 greatest players of all times, so I think the kinda destroys the comparison, but I understand what youre saying.