That? That is my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator!

Guns don't kill threads. Irreconcilable cultural differences under debate since the late 19th century kill threads.

 

I used to feel this way. I had some bad experiences with idiots with guns when I was a teenager and I was fortunate I wasn't shot. So my image of a typical gun owner was the type of person who thought that guns were toys to play around with - espcially after everyone's had a few beers in them. When the concealed carry issue came up for Minnesota I was against it, because when I pictured a gun owner in my head the aforementioned idiots is what came into mind, and the thought of the likes of them getting a concealed carry permit was chilling. But when I thought I about it further I remembered that I had guns in my house too - I didn't think about it because guns were treated as any other potentially dangerous tool in my household and not toys to fuck around with. It made me realize that the large majority of legal gun owners are responsible citizens. Therein lies the fallacy, because in your typical person's mind that type of citizen absolutely understands the responsbility of gun ownership is never thought of as a gun owner in the first place because they aren't out masturbating about their guns or always bragging about how awsome they are. If you have any decent sized circle of friends you trust, it's likely several of them are gun owners, and you never knew about it.

Since concealed carry became law in Minnesota I don't think I've seen one story about someone with a permit acting irresponsibly.

 

I still think a registry is useful though, because if nothing else if your guns are registered and then get stolen it makes it easier to get them back to you if they're ever recovered.

 

Compare that to a shotgun with #1 or #4 Buck, which penetrates about half as much. The guy recommends 00 Buck as a good home defense round.

But hey, dewerc's fully acted the idiot in this thread, so I don't expect reason to get to him.

As an aside, this thread's been listing towards dumb.

 

Other pros
1. ability to deliver a significant number of rounds without reloading (compared to a shot gun)
2. very little recoil, giving the user the ability to stay on target (compared to shotgun and handgun)
3. high velocity rounds tend to kill an assailant, especially when put through center of mass
4. easier to wield than a shotgun
5. very cool optics available as well as other options

Ammo in the state I live in is very easy to obtain, if you can afford the platform you can afford the ammo if you are concerned about shooting in a house.

 

What the fuck? How does 4 million turn into 1 billion? I've never really thought of the logistics of a firearms registry but doing some cursory research shows that (at least in the US), there are about as many guns in the US as there are registered vehicles, and vehicle registration hasn't seemed to be a big deal. Obviously since I don't own a gun I haven't put any real thought into the idea of registering one, but I don't see what the hassle is. (Aside from the implicit understanding that a big contributor to the gun culture in the US is the idea that you may need to use them to protect yourself from the government.)

 

I am responsible for every round I shoot, whether hunting, target shooting or home defense and I decide what I will use based off of my shooting experiences and what I am comfortable with and the circumstances involved, one thing that you are not considering before calling me an idiot, although I may be one, is that I would be more comfortable shooting rounds that are not buckshot because of my dogs, and the likelihood that they would be in close proximity to the person being shot.

 

You make some excellent points.

1. For sure, although to my mind's eye if you need more than 8 shotgun shells you aren't being robbed, you are being invaded by Mongolian hoarders.
2. I'll absolutely give you this one. It's a hot round in a buffered package, which is another reason people like them.
3. Obviously you need some penetration, which is why people don't use #12 bird shot in their home defense guns. But 5.56 penetrates a LOT, too much for comfort for me. I may know what I'm shooting at, but I don't know what's two, three rooms deep BEHIND that.
4. Glancing at the wall, my shotgun is longer than my M4, but I have a shorty barrel. If it were 16", they'd be about the same. From a raw banging-into-doorframes standpoint, they are about even.
5. For sure, although I have an EoTech on my shotgun (but mostly because I got it for free and already had them on my other guns).

I don't have a dim opinion of the Stoner platform overall. My life has been saved many times by one. I just don't recommend it to people as a home defense gun because 95% of people out there won't put in the research or training needed to employ one as a defensive weapon safely. They'll buy it, throw whatever Wal-Mart ammo they buy in it, and put it under the bed or in the closet. You're one of the other 5%, and that's cool too. But I feel recommending it would like be telling people that a classic Ferrari is a good daily driver; it isn't impossible, but it takes a lot of extra care that you typically only see in enthusiasts.

 

For the record, 00 Buckshot at 15" throws a pattern about 3.5" in diameter. It ain't exactly bird shot.

 

I like guns. I enjoy shooting watermelons and such. A minor word of caution though - when I was young (about 14, 15), me and my best friend had access to his neighbour's house so we could feed his dog while he was away. We fed his dog, but we also got drunk off cheap bourbon and played with his shotgun (which was 'hidden' in his bedroom closet). Looking back, we were incredibly retarded, but at the time it was the sort of adrenaline that I suspect a lot of adolescent boys crave. Same reason we used to take my parent's car out before either of us knew how to drive. Even if you don't have kids, bear in mind some kids are a tricky combination of cunning and stupid, lacking good forethought and self-preservation instincts. Just because you don't intend for them to be in your house, doesn't mean they won't get there.

My other caution is that the people who have guns in Aus tend not to be the people I would arm if given the choice. An acquaintance of mine is a straight lunatic, and when he got his gun license he did lines of coke mixed with gunpowder, then drove around shooting holes in stop signs.

 

First of all, let me state that I've never fired a gun outside of a BB gun. While I'm curious about firearms, I'm ambivalent about them for the most part.

Kids, for the most part, are stupid. Just look back at your own childhood and see how many colossal lapses of judgement you had growing up, and then throw in the potential for a gun accident. It's like getting a driver's license for the first time and then promptly wrapping your car around a tree because you were either drunk, racing, retarded, or a combination of the 3. It doesn't matter that you were a good person. Now you're down a limb and have a speech impediment.

Other than the fact that it is constitutionally illegal to disarm our citizenry, I would have no problems banning or severely restricting firearms in a home with a child in it. It just seems like common sense to me.

Now before you scream about home protection being more relevant now that you've got a spouse and kids to worry about, consider spending the money you would have purchased on a gun, all the ammunition you used, cleaning supplies and safety classes into a fucking security system that will have the cops at your house in minutes. Or buy a floodlight and a taser/pepper spray. Something less lethal than a shotgun that will fire a 3.5 foot fan of shrapnel.

Edit: Jesus, AlmostGaunt practically proved my point.

 

To preface, I strongly agree with everything BrianH has posted, and apologize in advance if I'm just being redundant.


Firstly, moral crusaders on either side of gun control debate hurt my head. It is not a black/white issue. A quotation that sums up this sentiment far more eloquently than I can:

Sanctimonious assertions filled with anecdotal evidence is, generally, meaningless.


Secondly, BrianH makes the analogy that guns are like cars. Taking this analogy a step further, Florida as far as I know does not require drivers ed to get your license. When I vacation in Florida I have anxiety about driving because there are an abundance of retards who burn red lights, ignore stop signs and generally have no idea what they're doing. Similarly gun owners who lack even basic knowledge on proper gun safety make me anxious.

Thirdly, the TiB pool posting about gun safety seems significantly different from the average gun owner. By nature of posting intelligent thought out posts you are more likely to make smart, informed decisions with your firearms. The averaged Tactical Sam? Not so much. Evidence (some components more compelling than others):

Spoiler

After a cursory look through a couple gun control sites these were the tidbits I found most compelling. No I did not check every single source and some data may be correlation as opposed to causation. I am not a gun owner, will very likely never have to kill anyone, and most of my opinions were formed discussing gun control with a marine buddy. You probably don't know what your reaction to a crime will be with adrenaline pumping like battery acid* through your veins. Shit, what if you miss and accidentally clip your son? You really have no idea unless you have had extensive exposure to firearms or extensive gun safety training. TL;DR guns are tools that vary in impact based on the owner's training and brains, and I suspect the average gun owner is not BrianH or Nettdata.

* Fight Club is awesome

 

Every single person who has come into my home knows exactly where my 12 gauge is because I keep it in plain view where I can see it at all times but out of access(I live in a small apartment). I also don't have friends who are stupid enough to just grab my things. Anyone who has ever had an interest they've always asked to see it.

I've got a 16 year old in the house and an almost 3 year old. The 16 year old knows if he fucks with it, he's going to get a beating within an inch of his life. I actually had a lock on the shotty until recently within the last few months when there was an incident which required me to keep it off 24/7. I won't get into the reasons why, but I did have a legitimate reason to fear for my life for at least a few months. I've NEVER been worried about either of them getting into my firearm(s).

 

I graduated high school in 1994 and I used to keep a hunting rifle in my truck, hanging on a rear window rack, every day during deer hunting season. It was even one of those evil semi automatic rifles.

Never once was I questioned about it other than to ask if I've killed anything. The vice principal tried to but it from me numerous times.

 

It's that exact fear that is diminished with a few classes on gun safety. The NRA makes it pretty easy to find some wherever you are (in the US).

http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx