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Shot through the heart, and you're to blame...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dcc001, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. lust4life

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    Alt. focus: Poison the dessert of my last meal.
     
  2. carpenter

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    This is a complicated one. There was a line in a fictional book by Andrew Vachss that has stuck with me. Way back when the first people huddled around the fire for warmth and companionship, there was one person who was more comfortable alone in the dark. He was talking about the people who, for one reason or another, don't do what everyone else does. In this case, murder other people. Or rape. Or whatever is so fucking evil that there is nothing else to be done with them. Some people are just broken.
    What if something horrible were to happen to a family member of mine? I can easily see myself performing a Charles Bronson style execution. Fair is fair. I realize it's not for everyone, but it's how I feel. For my own execution? Just toss me out of an airplane. Over the ocean please.
     
  3. CaptainHook

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    I used to be against capital punishment, as I'm usually pretty liberal on most issues.

    Now, I'm not completely sure.

    On the one hand, you DON'T want to execute the wrong guy - and it might be easy to fry a guy when a jury is looking at a large minority suspect who got convicted of raping a little girl. Shit like that happens.

    I'm especially sensitive after living in Harris County for a few years - you know, the infamous home of an insane former judge, who during his hey-day, executed more men one year than the rest of the country COMBINED (Harris County vs the rest of Texas + the rest of the United States).

    That might be a separate issue (insane judges and equal justice for all), but still - it can be hard to be certain.

    Conversely, if someone is known to be a horrible, methodical, unapologetic psychopath who takes joy for raping and/ or murdering people, my idea would be to inflict as much suffering upon them as possible. Not for deterrence, not for rehabilitation (both noble goals of the justice system) but for the third purpose: VENGEANCE. Not exactly what Jesus would support, but I'm not a religious person.

    So whatever seems worse --- life in prison or the death penalty. It's hard to say. Prison can be simply awful - especially if it was like Russian prison. Then again, they might find their own meaning and purpose and lifestyle in prison -- prisons have their own economies and hierarchies, and they might carve out a crappy lifestyle for themselves. They might turn to God and actually live guilt-free and feeling good. Hell, they'll probably live better than some people in third world countries or peasants during the Dark Ages. It's tough to say. Sometimes it might be prudent just to remove said despicable virus from all existence - who cares if he doesn't have years of regret - just remove him from this universe. Dispatch him without delay, if it warrants it.

    As to the people who say government doesn't have the right -- what do you think our military is doing right now? We are shooting and bombing and blowing away people as we speak.
     
  4. hoju

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    This is how threads get derailed.

    And here we go...
     
  5. Dcc001

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    Yeah, it's important to realize that how a country acts within the global community and protects its interests internationally is a wholly different matter from how it polices its own citizens. Let's not confuse a gunfight in the heat of battle with judiciously punishing a person who was charged and convicted of a specific crime by a jury of their peers.

    I'm 100% for capital punishment; however, as others have noted, the crime must be heinous and the verdict must be beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. not relying simply on eye witness testimony, but based on DNA, video, fingerprints, etc).

    More than capital punishment, though, I'm a fan of corporal punishment. Instead of clogging the prison system with tens of thousands of inmates that must be fed and clothed for the duration of their sentence, stand the asshole against the wall and lash him with a cane 50 times. I've been to Singapore many times; it is the prettiest, safest city you could ever want and there is a simple way to avoid being caned or lashed or whatever: don't break the laws.
     
  6. KIMaster

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    One of the better arguments I've heard against the death penalty. Problem is, you're just choosing to interpret the death sentence as an "eye for an eye", when that's not the true motivation behind it.

    Instead, it's that the convict is incapable of returning to society without murdering, torturing, and/or raping. In some cases, they are so bad that they are incapable of being in jail society without committing these atrocities. He/she is essentially a mad dog that needs to be put down, and makes life worse for everyone he/she comes in contact with, either in jail or in the free world.

    So what is the best course of action? Suffering through additional horrible crimes like murder and rape for the sake of not "murdering" the mad dog, and inflicting tremendous cost to the state...or putting them down?

    Very simple question for me, and yes, I have read Camus's "The Stranger".

    Alt Focus-

    Hard choice between lethal injection and firing squad. The latter would be the more badass and memorable death, but the former would be the easiest and most painless.
     
  7. Mike Ness

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    I think the thing that bothers me about capital punishment is the fact that a convict can be on death row for years.

    If I was found guilty I think I would just want to get on with it, I understand that some value every last breath they get, ect...but I would think the anticipation and mental anguish could almost be argued as cruel and unusual punishment.

    Is this usually the criminals doing? Trying for as many appeals as possible? Or do they truly get caught up in "the system" and get stuck on death row for ten years. That would be awful.

    ALT-FOCUS- Lethal Injection just makes the most sense, but it would be sweet to request firing squad and go out with a cigarette hanging out my mouth.

    For my last meal I would request a filet (rare) with béarnaise sauce, mashed potatoes and a ceaser salad, with a big piece of cheesecake for dessert.

    If someone get's the firing squad do they have witnesses? My knowledge of capital punishment comes mainly from movies, (so I know very little) but there is usually people watching the electrocution, what do they do with a firing squad?
     
  8. Crazy Wolf

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    Solitary confinement has been around for quite some time. I think this kinda puts a hole in that part of your argument, as we already have a way to remove someone from prison society, and it is cheaper, too.

    Oh, preferred way of going out? I think a shotgun crown/helmet (a bunch of barrels around the skull, pointed inward), be sure to get the brainstem ASAP.
     
  9. Disgustipated

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    So you're advocating solitary confinement for that person until they die? That's just like sentencing a person to die by old age. If you're going to remove a person to that degree for the rest of their life, you might as well stick a bullet in their head. I know I'd prefer it that way.

    And if you're not advocating until the day they die, then what you've said is of no effect.
     
  10. KIMaster

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    Firstly, it's not cheaper. A lethal injection costs far less than guarding, clothing, feeding, etc. a prisoner for years. By a lot. And the appeals would occur anyways for such an extreme punishment (solitary for life), and would not take any additional time and money from the courts.

    The idea that life imprisonment is cheaper than execution is a fallacy and based on the faulty assumption above.

    Secondly, and most importantly, you realize that your proposal to "fix" this is way more cruel and unusual than execution? Prisoners might be put into solitary for days, weeks, or even months, but for the rest of their life? Wow.

    I think 90% of the population would prefer a quick and painless death instead, and the other 10% that would choose solitary would do so with the hopes of breaking out.

    So yeah, I would say your proposal is worse than capital punishment.
     
  11. silway

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    It's not that I demand scientific rigor, but I think some kind of backing for a statistical statement like that is called for. I don't think anyone is arguing that the actual day of the execution costs more than life in prison, but rather that the entire process of capital punishment, starting from conviction until actual death, is more expensive than life in prison. I had a link posted earlier doing a survey of costs by state.

    If you're only looking at the day of execution, then sure, you're right. But if that's your point, you should define it that way.

    As for the appellate process being the same, life in prison appeals vs. death penalty appeals, there are special safeguards and procedures for the death penalty that increase the cost and time for that special class of punishment. If your assertion is that a life sentence in solitary will then receive those special safeguards if it replaces the death penalty, that's conjecture. It may not be unreasonable conjecture, but is still not a basis to call the higher cost of execution a fallacy.
     
  12. Disgustipated

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    I'm not a criminal defence lawyer, but I am a lawyer. KIMaster wasn't comparing life in person vs death penalty. He was comparing life in solitary confinement vs death penalty, which is quite a bit different. Placing someone in solitary confinement removes them from a lot of social stimulus that we all take for granted. A lot of civil libertarians consider it cruel and unusual punishment, especially when it is protracted. Further, he was factoring in the appeals process as he said it in his post.

    I'm sure placing someone in solitary confinement over an extended period of time would draw a lot of repeated court action to have that situation stopped. When we're talking for the term of their life, that adds up to a lot of court time; especially if it is a young offender. I'd hazard a guess without my scale and calculator in my hand to say that it's a safe bet the solitary would average out more in cost overall in appeals, let alone anything else.
     
  13. Parker

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    Alt Focus: My way out? Drop me in the middle of a terrorist right area with a desert eagle, m16 and 4 mags each. I'm of course going to die, but at least let me do something for my country. And fuck if I live, maybe I deserve some freedom?
     
  14. Sicnevol

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    I don't know if I like the Death Penalty. The threat doesn't seem to keep people from doing "bad" things. Then again neither does Prison. I guess it sounds fucked up, but a friend of mine is a prison guard and these "Criminals" get better health care then most anyone else, they're feed, clothed and kept in a simi-comfortable environment. They have access to free schooling, book, movies, and other entertainment. I mean my friend with cancer was contemplating committing a crime, just to get put in prison so she didn't have to pay her medical bills. When prison is that kind of an option, the fear of a prison sentence doesn't keep people from committing crimes.

    Now I'm not saying prison is a cake walk, any stretch of the imagination, but it obviously isn't working.

    I think we need forced labor camps for people who commit serious crimes. Make them pay back society by actually doing something instead of sitting in a cell, leeching tax money.

    Alt Focus: Injection. It doesn't hurt if you do it right.
     
  15. Firefnd1982

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    It seems that a lot of people are arguing that it costs more to execute people than to house them for a life sentence because of appeals. What no one seems to realize is that people who are sentenced to life in prison without parole go through the appeal process too. Not many people are just going to get a life sentence and sit there and take it.
     
  16. CaptainHook

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    Vengeance is a factor in our current punishment and prison system, whether you agree with it philosophically or not.

    The other two main reasons like I said are deterrence and rehabilitation.

    Rehabilitation isn't always an option (you are not going to cure those Enron executives of their "greed", okay? Or "fix" some other sociopaths.)

    But you'd have to be joking if you think the rest of the entire system is *completely* about deterrence (either because other people won't do it, or because you are keeping them out of society).

    Maybe it should be, but I'm certain the current system does not work that way. Many people get worse, learn more criminal trades, and relapse into the prison system.

    Also, why are sentences doled out based on the heinous nature of the crime, whether the guy felt remorse, etc?

    "Worse" crimes do not entail longer sentences because we think it will take longer to rehabilitate the guy or stick him back in society and rest easy.

    Most of the system is just about our primal urges and thoughts to serve up "justice" and punishment to someone where it's due, for purposes of vengeance, not deterrence or rehabilitation.

    It's like the idea of hell (whether you believe in it or not) -- if it exists, its more than simply a deterrent. Otherwise you could just say it exists, deter some people, and when the chips are down, you don't put people there because it already served it deterrent purpose. Why actually burn anyone? Well, because it satisfies our impulses and need to feel that some rapist or psycho or Nazi are burning forever or getting their just desserts.

    I mention this because the idea of the death penalty and its support has much to do with vengeance, and not better "deterrence" over a life sentence without parole.
     
  17. Veovis

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    Frozen.

    Why?

    Last I even knew it's the most pleasant way to die. Sure it takes longer, but, if you set up the room right, you can double purpose it as the prison feezer as well.
     
  18. Durej

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    If you watch Futurama you get this. If not Snoo snoo is sex.
     
    #78 Durej, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
  19. DrFrylock

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    Against.

    1. It's inconsistently applied.
    2. It's not cheaper factoring in the overhead.
    3. We get it wrong sometimes.
    4. I am pretty sure free will is an illusion and the universe is deterministic.
     
  20. LessTalk MoreStab

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    If the system doesn't effectively punish the criminal, the victim of the crime and their friends and family will be aggrieved and may either wish to take justice into their own hands or lose faith with their representatives, on a large scale both are harmful to stability within society. Punishment is important.

    I’m also a big supporter of corporal punishment, the number of young teenagers committing burglaries and assaults is getting stupid, and the little pricks get away with barley a slap on the wrist, 10 lashes with a Sjambok would make them see the error of their ways.

    Tell me these little fucks couldn’t do with a few decent cuts.

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2010/06/25/154441_scalesofjustice.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... stice.html</a>

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/New%20Folder/sjmbk.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/N ... /sjmbk.htm</a>

    If a dog is vicious and turns on anyone who approaches it you put it down. At no point do you hate the dog, neither should you wonder whether or not given years of therapy and medication you could ever trust it again. There are plenty more dogs out there afterall.