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Shot through the heart, and you're to blame...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dcc001, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. lostalldoubt86

    lostalldoubt86
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    I'm for capital punishment for major crimes, in particular child molesters. Not only because they are terrible people, but also because the alternatives are more torturous than death. Namely chemical castration, where the offender can choose to stop taking their medication if not strictly supervised, and imprisonment, were the offender may eventually get out. I think sometimes it's just more humane to end their lives.

    Alt-Focus: lethal injection, because I'm pretty sure they give you some morphine first.
     
  2. Volo

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    Fuck that. There's a subtle difference between jury duty and pulling the trigger. Killing someone is not a fucking weekend retreat, and is certainly nothing to put into the hands of ordinary citizens. While some can handle it, many can't. You'd throw them in prison for refusing to take a life?

    FOCUS: I'd be all for capital punishment if the legal system could ensure guilt and innocence with pinpoint accuracy. As it stands, it is currently not possible so you run the risk of taking innocent lives. That is a risk that's unacceptable.

    I side with Chater's position of taking each case on a situational basis. Obviously you're going to come across clear cut cases where guilt is obvious to all but the blind, deaf and dumb. In such cases, jab a needle in his arm and be done with it. He had his chance, and he fucked it up.

    Now, that's not to say I'm against second chances, but again, this kind of thing needs to be situational. An alcoholic trying to recover from fucking up his family life? That kind of thing might be salvageable. Some punk taking the life of a man just because he wanted his wallet? That kind of thing is bullshit.

    Additionally, another point to consider is by making capital punishment more commonplace, you might give a desperate man the impression that there's simply nothing left to lose. If he's going to die for killing a single man, why not kill a dozen?
     
  3. Kubla Kahn

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    This is the only difference between you and me. Regardless of whether innocents have died I just philosophically believe someone that purposefully murders another human life doesn't deserve to live his/her own. Of coarse the utmost care needs to be given so that the punishment is being executed on a completely guilty person. I don't think Ive ever heard anyone ever argue for the death penalty saying that, "hey there are bound to be fuck ups, doesn't mean we should stop the whole thing...."

    On the other hand I still have never had someone anti death penalty explain why it is fair or logical why someone guilty of murder (and there seems to be no limits to the depravity of the actual killings) gets to live while the person they murdered had to suffer a gruesome fate. Not being religious I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, it seems like one of the worst crimes to rob someone of the very short time they have one earth, if you do, then you don't deserve your short time on earth.

    edit: Im not sure why they even needed people to volunteer for the firing squad. Couldn't someone have just rigged up a sort of gun holding stand that could fire the four or five guns at once? Then just had a computer act as a trip wire at the designated time?
     
  4. Jimmy James

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    I'm against the death penalty. Not only because of the costs associated with executing someone, but it's state-sponsored murder. Before you start pissing and moaning about me being some kind of bleeding heart liberal, shut the fuck up.

    Let's use some common sense. A guy premeditates a killing. The few murderers who plan their crimes beforehand intend and expect to avoid punishment altogether by not getting caught. Or they might get a taste for killing after blowing up the neighbor's cat with an M-80. Or something. He's clearly fucked in the head. Do you really think he gives a shit about being executed if/when he gets caught?

    This line of thinking also applies to crimes of passion. Everybody here has done stupid shit where they simply DID NOT CARE about the consequences. These people just happened happened to take it to extreme levels. Or they may be have an undiagnosed mental illness or be high as shit on something.

    Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall had this to say on capital punishment.

    "In light of the massive amount of evidence before us, I see no alternative but to conclude that capital punishment cannot be justified on the basis of its deterrent effect." Link at the bottom.

    Since 1990, every state that's had no death penalty has had a lower murder rate for states that do. Link.

    Alt-focus: If I did have to pick a way for the state to kill me, I can't think of anything more manly than a firing squad.
     
  5. cdite

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    Ok so for the sake of argument, I rob a bank but don't plan to get caught because I came up with the most badass bank robbery plan since Jesse James himself and I do get caught. Do you set me free so you don't have to pay for my prison sentence? Do you think I give a shit if they give a shit about being executed? Fuck no if they don't give a shit, then why do people care about executing them. And the crime of passion is a cop out, again my girlfriend breaks up with me and in my anguish and fucked up state I rob a bank because I can't think clearly, but don't worry I was committing a crime of passion my bad.
     
  6. toddus

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    I can't personally morally reconcile state sponsored killing as a form of justice. I also realise that is a really shitty way to form an opinion on such a serious topic, especially when it flies counter to my broader beliefs that fly very close to 'end justifies the means' on more international matters of security/justice. Seeing as this is at best intellectually lazy and at worst dishonest I simply avoid entering into debate on the topic as my logic can simply not withstand scrutiny.
     
  7. scotchcrotch

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    Besides it being much cheaper to house a prisoner for life than to execute, capital punishment stands alone illogically compared to our other methods of punishment.

    No other punishment involves an "eye for an eye" mentality in the criminal courts. Being found guilty of rape doesn't equal rape in prison (or at least not officially), assault doesn't equal punitive assault by the courts, etc.

    When you go from punishment to revenge, it's no longer justice.


    "An eye for an eye leaves the world blind"
     
  8. cdite

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    Once again playing devil's advocate, are you saying you would be ok with someone who in cold blood murdered your wife, son, daughter, mother, father, etc. Living on your tax dollars? Sadly it may cost more to execute than house for life ( I haven't done the research I'm sure it varies from state to state ) but society dictates that we must be humane to those that aren't?
     
  9. scotchcrotch

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    You just answered your own question. It shouldn't be up to me to decide that person's fate! That's why we have a judicial system to determine the punishment fit.

    Any decision by me would be relative, unfair, and irrelevant. So would I choose the death penalty? I don't know as I can't imagine putting myself in that position. You're obviously suggesting I would lean towards capital punishment which suggests capital punishment is more vengeance than justice.

    And the cost of housing someone is roughly a third of the cost of all the appeals in an execution, so it's much cheaper. Regardless of the state.
     
  10. Kubla Kahn

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    Actually for most punishments we've just traded off equal punishments for prison time as punishment equal to how much we feel is needed for any given crime. So know matter how many times you quote Gandhi we still use retribution in our sentencing process.
     
  11. Jimmy James

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    I think we're arguing two different points here. I'm arguing against the death penalty, a sentence that's only brought on by treason or outrageous acts of murder. You're playing devil's advocate with a bank robbery. Unless this is one of those Heat style capers, you're not getting a death sentence.

    PS, I have no idea what you're trying to say for the last half of that paragraph.
     
  12. scotchcrotch

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    It's actually a combination of both with precedents and sentence limits.


    But you're right, we should kill more people.
     
  13. pincinelly

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    Focus: I'm not entirely sure where I sit but one point to consider regarding the "he murdered so he doesn't deserve to live" argument. It might be preferable to be executed rather than live for 60-70 years in prison. Especially if you have little to no interaction with other people, and when you do they try to rape you or fight you or otherwise violate you. That would be a pretty horrible existence. I'm not necessarily saying that this is true, but it is something to think about.

    In practical terms I am against execution - due to the high cost of execution and the issue of evidence exonerating someone after they had been executed. But theoretically (if it was cheap and you could be certain that they did it) I am not so sure.

    Alt. Focus: I have to go with the firing range. Although I think they should substitute the lethal injection for a shit load of heroin or something. I assume it would be cheaper and there wouldn't be the issue of whether or not the lethal injection is painful or not.
     
  14. Crown Royal

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    I don't care either way, really. I'd prefer not in North America, for two resons:

    1) Much more taxpayer money seems to be spent on execution rather than keeping them in jail, and lots of unecessary bullshit happens along the way: remember, death row is the WORST OF THE WORST. Last Meals? Fuck off and eat your shitty paste you murderous asshole, Sparky's waiting. Cotton swabs before lethal injection? Why is so much unecessary money spent on keeping criminals healthy enough just to do them in? Just decorate their cells with pre-knotted sheets and a sturdy pipe overhanging it.

    2) The 100% truth is that prison is a 24-7 unflinching and brutalizing trip into Hell, and I for one would rather die than spend a life sentence there. Living in paranoid, painful and shit conditions is WAY more horrific than being killed off, period.

    In the end, I say if you're going to do capital punishment, do it right: The Russian way. Take them down into the basement shower room, ask them to face the wall and BANG put a bullet behind their ear. End game.
     
  15. Pink Candy

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    Interesting. I was just having this discussion in my head earlier after reading about a 20 year old kid that was busted for his 4th parole violation. Refuses to follow rules. Defiant. Narcissistic. Likes to rape little boys. My office is powerless to change his thought patterns and behavior except to throw him in jail and hope THIS TIME is the time he finally gets it.

    And I thought to myself "My god. This person serves absolutely no purpose on earth. .40, back of the head. Bang, you're dead."

    That usually sums up my feelings on the matter of the death penalty. Yep, I fully admit to being illogical about how death is applied by the justice system.
     
  16. TheCapn

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    I don't really believe in the whole state sponsored vengeance thing and I think there are much more practical things we could be doing with murderers. The idea here is to cull the herd and somehow get some sort of monetary compensation from the convict. In my opinion, locking them up for life, forcing them to work, and making damn sure they don't get conjugal visits and reproduce like that Tex Watson asshole would be enough. Find some way to make them pay their debt to society by making them work for free and let it stand at that. If your wife and kid get killed by some guy, try to calm the blood lust a little bit and take solace in the fact that he'll have to spend the rest of his life avoiding anal rape.

    As for the alt. focus, I'll take a gun to the back of the head like the Chinese do. The fact that we have such elaborate fanfare involved with our executions is mildly disturbing.
     
  17. TX.

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    I'm against the death penalty. Even given the worst crimes committed, I don't think any man is capable of deciding whether or not another one lives or dies. Besides, it's not like killing a murderer is going to bring the victim back. The family's still lost their loved one. And, it's not like pedophiles are welcomed into prison with open arms. I don't want to think about what happens to them.

    Anti-Focus: Jump out of a plane. It'd be fun, and the SPLAT would take me out in a nanosecond.
     
  18. Denver

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    Why do people get hung up on the fact that it's state sponsored murder? What we have now is basically state sponsored kidnapping. I can see not liking the fact that it's basically murdering someone for vengeance, but I don't understand why it being state sponsored is the big problem.

    As for myself, I generally agree with what others have put forward, where I would be ok with it for particularly heinous crimes, but since sometimes we do convict innocent people, I think it's unacceptable since we might kill an innocent person. That having been said, I wish (as others have said) we could have separate system for the guys we really really know did it for sure so we could still execute them. The problem with that is we already have "beyond a reasonable doubt" as the standard. You're supposed to only convict the guy if you don't have any doubts about his guilt; how much more strict can you make the standard? Beyond both reasonable and unreasonable doubts? It'd be almost impossible to legally fashion some kind of new standard for this kind of system.
     
  19. Lasersailor

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    Like has been covered here, executing a Prisoner, even housing them til the execution date is relatively cheap. It's the several stages of Appeals often costing millions of dollars at each stage that costs a lot.

    Someone rep'ed me (positively though negative comment) after my comment that we should execute Guaranteed Life Sentence Prisoners. People who will never ever again contribute to society in any way in a Life Sentence in Prison are a drain on society, and a burden on the already filled to capacity Penal System.


    And a lot of people have been posting that they are against state sponsored vengeance. All justice is vengeance. Otherwise there would be no reason to do it.
     
  20. Solaris

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    You're arguing that theft with a weapon should carry the death penalty? In your strangely worded scenario you don't mention anyone dying but the criminal, doesn't seem like justice to me.

    For what it's worth I am against the death penalty and sentences of life without chance of parole.