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Serious Thread: Russian to Judgement

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Juice, Jul 22, 2014.

  1. Crown Royal

    Crown Royal
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    Just call me Topher

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    I don't care if he's in his 80's. I want Gorbachev back. He was a model for other Russian leaders to live by. That didn't go so well, evidently.
     
  2. dieformetal

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    Hurricanes Are My Bitch

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    From what I've heard from various Russians (dated a Russian chemist for a while and met her family/friends) Russians HATE Gorbachev. Like if you combined the five most unpopular presidents ever, that would roughly be the amount of hate Russians reserve for Gorbachev. Sure, everyone in the West thinks he's great because of Glasnost and whatnot, but he domestically shit the bed on multiple occasions. Take the polar opposite of how you feel towards Gorbachev and that's how Russians in general (in my limited experience) view him.
     
  3. Crown Royal

    Crown Royal
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    Just call me Topher

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    It's a good thing for the rest of us that we don't give a shit about what they think, because to paraphrase JWags: "a shithole filled with asshats".

    Anybody who thinks otherwise is more than welcome to simply type "Russia" on the YouTube search engine and watch thousands of videos that are hilariously horrific enough to make their eyes whirl clear out if their skull. Russia is a nest of psychos from another dimension.

    As a history lesson, Russia is a fascinating if not hypnotic read. As a country and people it sucks, period.
     
  4. Misanthropic

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    Fixed that for you.

    Extending NATO into the eastern bloc was foolish and needlessly provocative. The U.S. gained nothing by doing this, other than putting in place another mechanism to be dragged into the rest of the world's shit. The last time I looked Ukraine, Poland, et al were nowhere near the North Atlantic.
     
  5. ghettoastronaut

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    Isn't that just a tautology? Poland is about as close to the North Atlantic as Germany is; Italy (a founding member) isn't anywhere near the Atlantic, and Turkey, a member since the 50s, is even farther away.
     
  6. Misanthropic

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    Good point. I do however, stand by the bolded portion of my statement.
     
  7. AFHokie

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    But it isn't just Europe and NATO's problem. Remember, the US AND Canada are members too.

    NATO wasn't created to protect the north Atlantic. It's a security pact designed to provide a collective defense of its members. At the time of creation, the civil war between the government and communist fighters in Greece just ended and the Berlin Airlift was wrapping up. NATO was envisioned to prevent Soviet/communist expansion into the rest of Europe. However it is not limited to Europe. An attack against one is considered an attack against all regardless of who is the aggressor which is why NATO is involved in Afghanistan.

    As far as NATO concern for Ukraine; Poland invoked article IV which states "The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened"

    They likely invoked the article because during Poland's petition process to join NATO, Russia aggressively tried to prevent Poland from joining. Russia has done so to every former Warsaw Pact country expressing interest in NATO. Fifty years of Soviet/Russian heavy handed rule and meddling is why almost every eastern European country petitions for NATO membership. You have to understand, these countries spent the second half of the 20th century in an abusive relationship. They never want it to happen again and NATO membership is a pretty strong guarantee it won't.

    It's even worse for the Ukraine. Unlike Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states, Russia views much of Ukraine as historic parts of 'mother Russia'. Current events should not be a surprise...in 2008 Putin said Russia would annex eastern Ukraine and the Crimea if Ukraine joined NATO. The February revolution served as a catalyst. Let's face it, the past six months in that region would have played out very differently if they were.

    Regarding strict sanctions separating the Russian economy from Europe, who blinks first? Its like five guys trying to tackle a guy with a knife...they can do it, but one or two will likely get stabbed in the process.

    The ships France is building for Russia; I bet the French need the jobs and income more than Russia needs the ships.

    Modern economics are so intertwined, economic sanctions will affect the entire globe. Case in point, Russia is the main supplier of petroleum to western Europe, most of which coincidentally travels through Ukraine. If Russia shuts off the tap, or the pipelines are severed due to fighting in Ukraine, Europe will need to replace that supply from somewhere and the worldwide cost of oil will go up as the available supply shrinks while demand stays the same.
     
  8. Nettdata

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    A very powerful pic of Gaza from today:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. AFHokie

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    You're forgetting those countries damn near tripped over themselves running to ask NATO for membership precisely to get away from Russia. NATO's goal was to deter communist expansion and influence by providing a large collective counterweight to Soviet influence. Precisely what's currently happening in Ukraine, however since most of those NATO countries get their oil & gas from Russia...you get the results that are unfolding now.

    After watching a BBC interview with the Russian ambassador to the EU, I think Russia believes the additional sanctions announced yesterday realistically hurt western Europe more than they do Russia. Additionally, the timing of the long range missile test was probably a not so subtle reminder that if NATO decides to militarily intervene in Ukraine; bases and facilities within those European countries will be under threat of counterattack.

    Oh, there was speculation a decade ago of Russia eventually joining NATO, (Putin even mentioned it) but even back then Russia's interests are far to divergent from the west. Other than the strategic importance of the Crimea and Sevastopol, Ukraine is important to Russia because Russia historically views Ukraine as a part of Russia. Russia sees themselves defending historically ethnic Russians in an internal domestic dispute.

    Putin's definitely doubling down: "But to actually deter further Russian aggression requires an overt demonstration of competence and will. Vladimir Putin must have credible reason to believe that further escalation is not only contrary to his long-term interest, but that the military operation will fail—or at least be much harder and much more costly than he currently thinks it will be."

    Providing military aid to the Georgians in 2008 didn't deter him...I doubt it will in the Ukraine.

    Right now I don't think either side wants to escalate into a larger conflict, but in brinkmanship at some point one side has to call the other's bluff.
     
  10. Cult

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    Maybe they were just serving us some serious Kool Aide but I recently was on a "deployment" to Poland that was a part of fulfilling our Article IV commitment to them and apparently we've had a long military history with them spanning back to the Revolutionary War. Like we're taking they briefed us for several hours about the partnership we've had with them.
     
  11. Chellie

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    Disturbed

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