Say that again?

I heard on the news this morning that they have been giving the miners a diet with increased potassium to prevent stomach aches while they ride up the rescue tube. I'm pretty sure those guys are willing to risk a tummy fucking ache to be out of that hell hole.

 

Sure, but what happens when the third guy shits his pants on the ride up?

 

I read somewhere that the miners aren't going to be given any medication to calm their nerves and prevent panic attacks (like xanax, for example).

The argument was that, in addition to everything else the miners are certainly experiencing medically, the rescuers don't want to deal with drugged up patients. It'll be easier to diagnose them, and accordingly easier to immediately treat them, if they aren't on calming agents. I get that part. It makes sense.

But to me the positives GREATLY outweigh the negatives. I get panic attacks (from PTSD, something I'm betting a majority of these miners already have), and I'm on meds to calm my nerves. More often than not now I can deal with these attacks mentally and logically, essentially organically, but that took a lot of fucking practice. And when I can't deal with them like that, I can take a .5mg of xanax that dissolves instantly under my tongue. Bam. Crisis averted, doesn't make me act overly drugged (especially if I split it), and I'm able to go back to rationally and calmly dealing with the task at hand.

Someone please tell me why the benefits of giving the miners something like xanax (or other calming agents) wouldn't greatly outweigh the negatives.

Or fuck it, just give 'em a beer, or half. That'll calm their nerves for long enough in that fucking tube.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=101008/Chile

Read this article the other day about one of the miners. Bit on the longer side for an ESPN article but I thought it was a good read.

 

You know, if Bruce Willis didn't die up on that asteroid a few years back, those miners would have been freed on day two.

 

I'm bookmarking that article. That deserves a fucking ESPY.

By the way, I nominate this as one of the greatest quotes ever:

 

I don't give a fuck if I have to wake up early for class; I'm staying awake for a while. They're lowering the first rescuer down into the mine right now. I'm watching a miracle on live tv.

 

Nonsense. God smited a group of Chilean miners and was too fucking weak to finish the rest of them off. I'm pretty sure that fits the definition of "miracle", though perhaps not in the conventional sense.

Samr, you've already admitted to having narcissism from PTSD. Bear in mind that xanax is a benzodiazepine. I'm sure you can figure out why you don't want a drug that can cause drowsiness, a lack of alertness, not to mention respiratory depression, in an environment like this. These guys are miners, I'm sure they're tough enough to handle getting out.

 

For me, it's appropriate.

I know you know my history, and even given what happened to me I'm still not sure where I stand as far as religion and stuff. Do I have faith? Yeah, absolutely no question. Do I think that God or someone else intervened with me? Maybe, but I'm also 100% certain that there's a logical medical reason for everything that happened to me. It was cause and effect. Improbable cause and effect, without a doubt, but every thing I experienced happened because of something else I can physically or logically point to. Now, some of the circumstances and events that happened were statistically improbable, but there still existed an actual chance.

Now take what happened to me, and my views on that, and multiply it by about 10 thousand. And that's what happened to the miners.

To sum it up quickly, I essentially equate "miracle" with "absolute fucking shitty circumstances improbably solved to an extend to which one couldn't rationally predict that outcome."

So in that context, I experienced a small miracle. And what I'm watching on tv right now, is an insanely large miracle.

And maybe, if we humans are smart enough, we can take these miracles, dissect them, learn from them, and eventually repeat them or otherwise avoid them to the extent that "miracle" is no longer an appropriate word to use.

But in this context, tonight, it is.

 

My thinking was based upon my experiences, and certainly my experiences don't equate to everyone's experiences. That's why I (admittedly with bias) still posed it as a question as to why that decision was made.

What I had suggested was small dosages. If I'm having an anxiety attack to the extent to which I "need" to medically control it, a 2.5mg or even .5 mg instant-dissolve dose of a benzo under my tongue will take the edge off. If it's that bad of a panic attack, I'm at such a heightened state of alertness that the xanax merely takes the edge off and will bring me back down to par. If I'm fine and I take it, bad things happened like what you mentioned above. But if I'm, for example, in a confined/crowded space, it just makes me "normal."

That being said, it was a decision made by some of the smartest medical minds on earth. By no means do I know more than them (but I'm sure Tucker "does"). But there are some people on this board with greater medical insight than myself. I'm just want to hear the counter argument, because I know when I see something as a 100% clear-cut decision, it's usually not the right one.

 

Lay off the horns and cheering people, this guy is probably a wreck!
It's sad and amazing to see that little boy cry.

 

It's an easy out, and sometimes I wish I could have taken it.

If I claimed my experiences were a miracle, it much more likely would have been cut and dry. I could have blamed it all on some higher being and been done with it. No PTSD, no medical narcissism, no psychological trauma associated with thinking logically about it, because I wouldn't have needed to. I worked my fucking ass off in the hospital, dealt with intense physical pain in a relatively tearless and emotionless environment (because emotions have no place in a trauma setting), and as a result I recovered to an extent that parallels the work I put into it. But as a result, I also now have a few fun psychological speed bumps.

Depending on who you ask, if I had just sat back and called it a "miracle" and stopped putting in work, I wouldn't be where I am now.


I do not intend to derail this thread anymore than I already have, but if anyone wishes to discuss the "post-trauma" landscape or ask any questions either through PM or on this thread or whatever, I'd be happy to offer my personal experiences. It's one of the few areas I genuinely have experience in.

And what I'll say will be one thousandth of what I hope many of these miners don't experience. Because it's a rough road, and it's not the path for everyone.

 

- The image/idea of that first man to the surface represented a miracle (in the religious sense) to many, it represented hope to the families of other miners around that camp, and represented the largest accomplishment of most of those drillers' lives. It's like pointing and laughing when you see a fat chick fall, sometimes you just can't contain your emotions.

- Gotta give Chile props for the way they're broadcasting this and making the entire operation as transparent as logistically possible. Its some of the greatest PR that country can get, and it's incredible entertainment and often inspiration to those who aren't directly affected. Win/win.

- The guy looks exhausted (no shit). I imagine that emotional high will carry him for a very long time, and I'm willing to wager he's the exact opposite of a wreck on the inside right now. You don't get many "second chances" in life if any at all, and that guy just got one. The boy crying and the miner's face tell it all.

 

Just to clear it up, I'm thinking respiratory depression must have been the issue to avoid any anxiolytics. Slate's Explainer, normally a good source when it comes to obscure technical knowledge (because they go to experts about it) says...

Now it's rather reasonable to say that this might be a little bit overcautious - respiratory depression with benzos is usually only discussed in conjunction with taking alcohol - but if these guys are already in need of ensuring they're taking deep breaths on a regular basis, you don't want to be giving them a respiratory depressant. There's also likely a lower concentration of oxygen in the mine; the brain normally compensates for low blood oxygen levels by yawning or breathing more deeply. Fundamentally, a respiratory depressant affects this area of the central nervous system that tells the lungs to breathe deeper when the body needs more oxygen.

Also, a more minor concern would include this:

I think anxiolytics would also keep the pupils dilated.

On top of this, you have to consider that, in order for prescription drugs to be given to these guys, a physician would have to sign off on giving out dangerous drugs in a high-risk situation without having actually examined them. What if their kidney or liver function is altered, leading to decreased drug clearance and markedly increased effects over the baseline? What if the Oxygen level in the mine is low enough that just a bit of respiratory depression can be hazardous? What if they get a drop in blood pressure while standing in that coffin-elevator and they pass out on the way up, losing blood supply to the brain? What if one of the miners takes too large a dose, gets fucked up, and is stuck in there for at least another 24 hours - probably with another miner to babysit him - without the benefit of proper medical attention?

Compare this to a guy being claustrophobic during the elevator ride up. Scary as fuck, maybe, but he'll get out.

As for use of the word miracle, this is plainly an example of keeping two books, whether or not you mean it in its original sense of supernatural intervention in earthly affairs. If we take the mine collapse, the deaths of many other miners, and keeping thirty-something miners in tight quarters for a few months as read, sure, it's a great thing they survived. Would have been better if this had never happened in the first place. Reminds me of an episode of Top Gear: "This is a brilliant solution to a problem that should never have existed in the first place." It's just a shame all these fine engineering minds weren't around to prevent the mine from collapsing.

 

#4, which is the only Bolivian, has just surfaced. Now that the initial drama has passed, we're hearing some of the more fascinating details.

I had to ditch CNN as their talking heads are so damn annoying and unoriginal. This story doesn't need their bloated, dramatic language. It carries enough weight all on it's own. BBC was commendable, but I've since found CBC to be doing a great job. They have really given us a variety of angles with knowledgable people and not just repeating themselves.

It seems that the miners have made a pact to never discuss the first horrific 17 days down there, which of course was the time before they had contact from above. There was apparently a division between 5 of them and the pack (subcontractors I think?) and psychologists had to come up with a plan to make them unite in order to survive. Their solution resulted in this this pact. This is the story that I'm most interested in. Those first 17 days will tell a tale that we have never heard before and couldn't possibly fathom. Damn, I hope they decide to spill.