I have two responses to this: 1) Are you a science grad? Based on your postings before...you know a lot of biology. If so, keep in mind that the market for science related things is nothing like the market for someone with, say, a BA in English. 2) Does your school have a job board? Does it not suck? Because these are often very, very useful for someone in your position, since they are a go-to spot for when you want to hire recent college graduates. If I had a position that I thought would appeal mainly to recent graduates and didn't require a ton of experience, the first place that I would go is various colleges' career center (and I've done hiring of this sort in the past, so I'm not completely talking out of my ass).
This is far from a definitive answer, but in my experience putting the 3-5+ years of experience for an entry level job is more of a 'wish list' thing. They also don't want to turn people with experience away by saying all you need is a degree, no experience necessary, because it will feel like they are taking a step backward. Christ, even the call center I worked for wanted 2-3 years experience, but almost no one there had any. On the other hand, we were able to poach people from other companies by making them feel like they were taking a step up.
Great thread so far on a subject that's at the front of my mind at the moment as I'll be graduating in July with my bachelors degree. Whiny rant: Spoiler The most frustrating part of the job hunt so far has been that the jobs I'm looking at are now all demanding postgraduate degrees when I know that they only required bachelors last year. I feel like I've done everything I can to make myself employable for companies in the field. I'm about to graduate with a First Class degree from a reputable university (best degree classification over here), within my degree I went great lengths to study courses relevant to the field, I spent my summers as an intern and I have a resume loaded with extra curricular activities. I now cant even get an interview because companies can now afford to demand postgraduate degrees, I can't afford to spend another year studying. Talk about goalposts moving. For those who do have jobs: did you have anything on your resume in particular that you think made you stand out? Was there anything on their that they were really interested in during your interviews (beyond the usual internships)? Just curious.
Yes, I will be graduating with a degree in biology. It has taken me a bit longer to graduate because I was in nursing school when I realized that I was awful at it and hated it. I really liked a few of the theory based classes like pathophysiology and infectious diseases but the actual nursing classes where we had to perform nursing skills were awful. So, those classes from nursing school plus my biology major classes have given a fairly well rounded biological and general health education. Unfortunately the nursing classes (2 semesters worth) also hurt my GPA. We have job fairs and a career advising office here. I'm not sure how good they are but it is worth looking into. Another thing to consider is that I'll be moving to Hawaii because that is where my fiance is stationed. My college has a LOT of connections with this town, and sometimes having a degree from my school can be a way to network with other graduates who live here in this town, but I'll be moving far away for a minimum of 2 years. We might be back after that. I'm just afraid that the fact that my GPA is not stellar and that I've spent all my summers taking classes instead of taking internships is going to bite me in the rear. Even though I feel that I have a good educational background and would be easy to train for a job, I don't know how to convey this on a resume in such a way that those hiring take notice.
I had a friend who was complaining about this very thing. He is super smart, graduated in the top 3 of his class in chemical engineering, and was only able to find a job after 2 years of posting resumes fruitlessly. He went to grad school in the meantime and hated it; he just wanted to work. It was pretty depressing hearing his stories of what places he had applied to. His number was in the hundreds.
You can try to make yourself seem as marketable as possible, but HR people think this is all a big game. You have to get yourself noticed at exactly the right time. If you call to speak to the recruiter, you get bounced around between receptionists so that you cannot actually speak to anyone in charge. Short of lying about your past work experience, there really is nothing you can say to stand out more than anyone else really. I remember sitting in the office of the recruiter at my first job interview and his phone was ringing a couple times with someone who was inquiring about their application status. He shook his head and said that guy was calling too much and it annoyed him so he's not going to consider that applicant. Regardless of his qualifications. Its fucked up. Another problem is that everything is done online now. They have taken out the humanity of getting a job the old fashioned way. I highly recommend walking in to the place you applied to and introducing yourself. It puts them on the spot, somewhat, and forces them to actually interact with you. Its a rather ironic way for human resource people to behave. But it is how I landed my first job out of x-ray school with just my clinical experience to show.
Look, like I said, this is a competition. And that competition is as stiff as Nettdata's dick at a Porsche convention. You distinguish yourself by having things - education, skills, awards, experiences, contacts - that other people don't. Experience matters a lot when your competitors have focused mostly on education. It helps convince an employer that they are not going to have to spend six months teaching you how to exist in a corporate environment and that you probably have some hands-on skills. It is perhaps more important as a vehicle to build up your social network. In a big company, there are two filters to get through. There is the HR filter and the hiring manager filter. All the resumes go through the HR filter first. They are clinically retarded. They are looking for specific magic words and numbers only and don't know what they mean. So if the hiring manager tells HR he wants people with 5 years Linux experience and you put 10 years Ubuntu experience, you get filtered out. This is a big reason why a lot of people pad their resumes with skills they don't really have: it's an attempt to sneak through the keyword filter. The hiring manager can also circumvent the HR filter by pulling a resume through of someone he knows. This is why social networks are important. The hiring manager is a real, non-retarded human who looks at the stack of resumes that pass the HR filter. He (or she) rates them however he wants. The ones on the top of the stack are going to be 1) people he knows and 2) the best of the rest. These people get interviews. In my experience, prior jobs and experience are the #1 discriminator used, and the one with the most granularity. Other achievements get ranked as 1) this is awesome 2) this is average or 3) potential dealbreaker. Let's take GPA: Awesome is like a 3.85 and up. Average is anything above maybe 3. 2.x is a potential dealbreaker. So unless your GPA is very close to 4 or below 3, it effectively doesn't matter. Same with your school reputation: Harvard, MIT? Awesome. Podunk Community College Online.com? Potential dealbreaker. Everywhere else? Doesn't matter. Activities: Editor of the paper: awesome. Contributing writer: meh. Awards are good way to distinguish yourself but they really help if it's clear that the award was actually one of distinction: the field was big and it was hard to get. Writer of the year from the English department: Awesome. "Recognition of Support to Tri-Delt Philanthropy?" Less so. Chinese Club treasurer of the year? Meh. IMHO it's preferable to have 2-3 awesome things than 5-6 meh things. Better to demonstrate a little excellence than an abundance of mediocrity.
I know someone who was in your exact shoes a couple years ago (though she was in Key West) with the same degree, honestly, the best thing you can do is get a bar-tending licence as that will most likely be the highest paying job you'll be able to get. And I'm not saying that to be a prick, but trying to get a job that utilizes a general bio degree with no flexibility with location is going to be damn near impossible. And let's say you do get a job you want and have to leave in two years, do you want to bank on your next location having a job which utilizes the skill set you developed? Whereas I can almost guarantee the next place you live will have bars. Also, are you sure nursing is out of the question? That is pretty much bar none the best degree to have when you know you're moving place to place and still want to work, especially if you go for it after the wedding and get his education benefits.
I knew we had a lot of misanthropes here, but Jesus, why didn't you people just stick your heads in an oven immediately after graduation they way you look at life?
Do not, ever, underestimate the social aspect of finding a job or getting hired. Someone mentioned it before, but it's not what you know, it's who you know. As in 99% of it. The "who" part gets you in the door, and then you have to prove yourself. Posting resumes is, for the most part, useless. You have to know the people who you want to hire you... put a face to the name on your resume. If you're serious about looking for a job, have you put the word out and networked with your friends and family? You'd be amazed at how long-reaching that network is, and how wide a net it can cast. Most people I've talked to that bitch about not having a job haven't done that at all. And look into social groups that might help you out. Might not be for everyone, but look into becoming a Shriner, for instance. They look after their own, in a big way. If you're likeable, and get along with people, you'd be amazed at how many of those people will actively go out of their way to help you out. And they know EVERYBODY. And a polite request from them to "see if you might have a spot in your company for this guy" goes a fucking long way, usually. Or if you're into sports, and play on a rec team, get the word out that you're looking. It's almost identical to dating; get out there and meet people and network face to face. Don't rely on emails and resumes and shit. I get about 10 of those a day and don't even open them.
It looks like my job search is going to come to an end sometime soon. I've decided to give up the hunt and go get a bachelors in accounting, hopefully lucky number 3 treats me well (after I get that degree it will be my third bachelors.) Accounting sucks, but so does being unemployed and living at home with the family. Maybe after I take 18 months to get that degree the job market will have cleared up a bit and I can find something decent. To add to Nets points, sociability can be important. Someone in my family works for a well known pharma and occasionally hires people. These people will come in the door with sterling resumes, but they may not get the job. Why? Because being able to be social and human plays a large role in the work place. No one person is smarter than a group of capable people. No one person can execute an idea better than a group of capable people.
I'm in IT, and while it isn't nearly as tough to get into as being a lawyer, I feel like I can contribute. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with ballsack. It's been my experience that's gotten me the job that I've wanted. That and networking the shit out of my customers. I was lucky in that I started at 16 and decided that I liked it so much that I made it a career. When I got my first job out of high school, the guy that hired me told me flat out that a degree and certifications were nice, but ultimately not nearly as important as knowing you had done the work before.
The only reason I have a job right now is because I made a habit of staying in contact with former instructors and professors from college. One of them ended up leaving academia for the corporate world, and was willing to recommend me to an entry level position in a similar division with the company. Without his personally speaking with the HR recruiter and the hiring manager, there is no way I would have been able to rise to the top of the overwhelming mess of people that go through the career website of a Fortune 50 company. He wasn't being completely altruistic though, since a hefty referral bonus showed up on his paycheck after my 60-day mark. I'm now trying to pay it forward to as many of my now-unemployed friends as I can...'cause I want them thar' referral bonuses too! Also, having friends that can afford to drink is nice. Then I'm not the one always picking up the tab.
Word. Pull every string you can think of, and tell older people, like friends of your parents, you're looking. A character reference, even if it's verbal can get you an interview LONG before the color of your resume paper or your GPA. And, even if you always told yourself, "I don't want to be that guy that works for his Dad (or his Dad's friend) because I'm going to make my own name." Screw that. Do it anyway, get experience you need, and then go work somewhere else when you're in demand or start your own company with that experience under your belt. If you're moving to a new town anyway where you're looking for work, use EVERY social avenue available. Find a church and participate in fellowship activities, like meals, and get to know some of the older (not retirement age) members. Impress them and tell them you're job hunting.
Just to touch on what it takes to get hired. I've hired 30 people in the last 2 years. The number one deciding factor about whether or not (s)he got hired was their personality and whether they'd fit in on the team. Their knowledge came second. Sure, they had to be smart, and know some shit, but as long as they were going to be a positive social addition to the team, that kept them in the running. We had about 5 PhD's that came in for one position, and they were all highly recommended, and technically checked out amazingly well, and were smart, but they were fucking social retards. We (me and my tech lead) didn't want to hire any of them. The Boss said "hire one", so we did. Ended up being a pariah on the team, and was fired 4 months later after a major shit-storm with HR. We replaced him with a guy that didn't have anywhere near the apparent qualifications, but he was a great guy, positive, smart, eager to learn, and was a huge benefit to the team. And that benefit was measured in more ways than just the code he wrote. Team morale and esprit-de-corp is huge, and more and more people are hiring with that in mind.
Don't be afraid to move to a better job market. At least for me personally, it took moving 3 hours away from my hometown in order to find a decent job in IT. By decent, I mean pays what I consider to be a decent wage. I decided that I needed to find a new job and was looking on Monster in the town I eventually moved to. On a lark, I put an application in for a big company. I got a call 30 minutes later and was asked if I could come in for an interview a couple of days later. A week after that, I had moved, started my new job and have worked for the same company for 7 years. Also, to echo what was said before, you would be surprised what social organizations can do for you. I have always put that I am an Eagle Scout on my resume. I know that I have gotten an interview at least once specifically because of that.
I'm agreeing with Frank on this one. Go back and finish that nursing degree and you will find yourself instantly hired. One of my good friends was a traveling nurse all along the NorCal area making great money and having a fully furnished apartment paid for her. Plus with the nursing unions you are very well protected with job security and you can make a killing if you become more specialized such as a burn unit nurse or cardiac ICU nurse. General biology degrees mean absolutely fuck all in todays age. Every freshman I encountered in undergrad wanted to either get a degree in general bio or general psych. Which both look fucking fabulous framed up on the wall with your plexiglass diploma display, but unless you have toe curling blowjob skills and a pair of knee pads you will never ever get hired to an actual job outside of retail. I did general biology with minors in spanish and business as my backup if I had not gotten into medical school. This easily could have easily backfired due to the fact that medical school applications keep rising every year and spots are slow to increase. This is eventually going to fuck doctors as well since residency spots are essentially frozen due to decreased government reimbursement to hospitals.
I'll echo the nursing school thing. Does the job suck? Sure, it can. The hours are long, it is mentally, emotionally, and physically draining. But the jobs are there and it can be as rewarding as it is stressful. And if you hate actual hospital nursing, there are other jobs for nurses out there. Or you can go to grad school which brings me to.... As far as my job search, I graduated about a year and a half ago with a Masters in Nursing. I applied for a few jobs, I got called for interviews for several, and job offers from three. I actually got to negotiate in this shitty economy and be selective about where I worked. My interviews came mostly from word of mouth. One was the medical director for a clinic I trained at during school who also worked at a hospital (I guess that would be the equivalent of internships for most of you, but these are required for your degree), and the other two were from physicians asking my instructors for good candidates. So, once again, it came down to who you know. In my case, however, it wasn't through some sort of fancy connections, but being impressive enough to the people who encounter you during the course of your studies that they remember you when a job opens up (in one case) or put their neck out to recommend you. Oh, and working your ass off helps too.
After my extremely helpful earlier post, I took my head out of the oven for a second to post something slightly more helpful (and because only the burners up top are gas...): Unless you gained your degree from an eminent institution with name value, no one really gives a fuck where you got your degree from or whether you did honours. And by no one, I mean me and possibly everyone else. I certainly know that in Australia, where I got my law degree from means fat fuck all (unless it's Bond University and you got it in the pre-2000s, in which case you're likely to be hopeless). The one exception to this is if you got your degree at the same place your intended boss/interviewer got theirs and they have some fond memories of their education. Accordingly, unless it's Harvard, Stanford, Oxford or the like, don't bang on about it. It'll mark you as a pretentious dickweed. Be realistic. So you have your degree and think you know a ton of shit? Well, odds are your intended job market is filled with people just like you competing for the same position. That degree that you think is an advantage? It just puts you on an even par with all the other applicants. Consider it your foundation, but it is not the reason you'll get hired. Here are some of the major factors that can influence your ability to get hired. Save for the first one, they're not ranked as their importance will differ from job to job and employer to employer: - Experience. Absolute number 1. If I, as am employer, know that you have some basis of demonstrated ability in the job I need you to do then you'll save me money in training and non-productive time. Investment into unskilled/inexperienced workers is a major drag on employers and big factor in deciding who to employ. When I started at my second law firm, I had some experience in the work I was going to do. The week I started, my supervising partner was away. Because of what I knew, I could dive straight in and get to work so that the files were all current when he got back. That set up a great working relationship as he knew I was already making him money and he could feel confident in leaving me to do my thing. - Attitude. If I have to explain this one, yours needs adjusting. No one who cares about their business (or a HR person who cares about their position) is going to hire someone who doesn't seem genuinely interested in getting the position. When we're talking graduates, we're generally looking at positions with a bit more to them than making sure you don't cook the fish fillets in the chicken fryer. A good attitude generally translates into care and pride in your work, which delivers a better product and increases your worth to the employer. - Speed. Ideally, it's speed without sacrificing accuracy. Some businesses don't care. Whether you're wage or salary, you're really getting paid for your time. If you can cram more output into your working hours, the employer gets more worth out of you. This counts double for deadlines. Customers and clients don't like paying for things that take forever. Handing up a perfect submission a day past its cut off date makes it absolutely worthless. - What did you bring with you? Got connections? Bring them. Do not, and I repeat - do not, oversell them. If you can't deliver what you promise, you will be booted in the ass. The second do not is do not pilfer from past employers. We had a paralegal join a firm who made a loud show of stating she was able to bring the precedents from her last position and give them to her employing partner. He immediately showed her the door, after making sure she hadn't seen any of ours. Precedents, client details, intellectual property ... this is all gold and jealously guarded. Any employer with scruples will not take them because they know it is wrong and the shit fight it will cause. Also, there's the old adage - "if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you." - Social skills that fit the job. Will you be working directly with clients? Highlight your communication skills, especially if you have skills in selling. If you can't deliver a result to a client in a way that they understand the benefit they're getting, then you may just lose them. Sometimes it's a no win situation and you bust your hump to achieve minimum impact. A lot of clients will still see that as a bad job, unless you can get them to understand the overall outcome. As with above, don't oversell. It pisses clients off. Will you be working in a team? Highlight team skills, both as leader and as a subordinate. People make the mistake of talking up their team leading skills too much. Odds are, if you're a graduate, you won't be leading shit. If the employer things your alpha stance is going to disrupt the rest of the team, you won't get the position. - Willingness to do what is required. Entry level positions are at the bottom of the food chain. Sometimes you won't be trusted with the work you want to do, sometimes it's not available. Either way, sitting on your ass doing nothing is money down the drain for an employer. Ask if there's anything you can do, whether it's in your job description or not. I'm not talking scrubbing the toilets (but if it keeps you in your job, get your gloves...), but helping with the shit jobs like archiving, filing, data entry and checking can get you a long way. Showing that you have done so when required tells new employers that you are a team player. Helping the poor, overworked secretaries, receptionists and accounts clerks is invaluable karma that will pay off. The key is not to marginalise yourself and get stuck there. You want to do the exciting work, so keep your availability for that. No matter what, you must, and I can't stress this enough, make sure your supervisor is aware and okay with what you are doing. It causes all sorts of shit when you're doing something they're not aware of, especially if they came to bring you something juicy and you were nowhere to be found.
Ha. This is exactly why I'm an electrical apprentice. There is not, and will never be a shortage of the need for skilled labour. You may be a doctor, but your sure as shit going to need someone to make the lights work in your operating room. In the next 15 years, the government says Canada will need 200 000 skilled tradesmen, simply because the old guys are retiring because nobody wants to work these days. You look in any senior highschool classroom, 90% are probably going to go to college (usually for useless shit like English literature other such useless degree because they want to "find themselves"). The rest will join the military or join trades. Back in the day it was the other way around, 90% of the kids went to work or got trades, the 90% went to school, so it was easier for the college grads to find good jobs because the competition wasn't a fierce as it is today. The money is good working in a trade as well. I normally don't brag about this but as an electrical apprentice I made just shy of $80 000 last year, and I was 19 up until July. I worked a shit load of overtime but its worth it. In a few years I become licensed it would be easy to Make $150 000 to $200 000 a year. One of the guys I work with showed me his T-4's around tax time, and in the past 5 years the least he made was $185 000 and that was in 2009. What does a Canadian doctor make per year? Every job I ever got was from word of mouth so I can honestly say I've never had to write a resume so the best advice I can give you folks is how to keep a job. Essentially what you have to do is work your balls off and be better then everybody else. I try to work harder, I try to have the best tools, I try to have the most tickets in my wallet and I try to be best friends with the boss. This may seem like brown-nosing, but the other guys on the job wont help me make my truck payment when I get laid off. Being the best employee an owner has sets you apart in more ways then one. My boss gives me special perks (guess who gets all the copper at the end of the job fuckers), offers me all the overtime that comes up before the other guys and he lets me run small jobs. He knows when he sends me up north to get a job done, it will get done in the time frame given no matter what it takes. Doing what I just said helps you when you have to part ways and move on as well. It dosent matter what industry you are in, chances are your boss or owner of the company you work for knows a bunch of other bosses or owners and can get you your next job when he slows down. IMO, this generation is better off picking up a trade just due to the sheer number of people graduating college looking for the white collar job that thousands of the same people, with the same qualifications are looking for. In a trade, your name is all the resume you need, and with a shortage of skilled tradesmen worth a fuck these days, you'll always be working and you WILL make more then the poeple that just got out of college, and even when you each have 20 years of experience.