No, I wouldn't want my daughter or sister to do porn. But I have the right to say something about that. I have no right to butt into a stranger's life (especially an adult who has the right to make their own decisions) and categorically criticize their life choices because of my own moral hangups. Hell, I know many people who wouldn't want their kids to join the military. They're scared and protective and they think it's basically the equivalent of drunk driving - a stupid risky thing done for unfathomable reasons. But that hardly means they can run that person's life. Everyone gets to make their own choices. Honestly, I don't even like that look. It's played out. You can find a million women like that depending where you are (Dallas/LA/Miami). For that matter, I also don't like the drugged-out actresses - not even making a moral stance, but I'm honestly turned off by that. I'd much rather my porn look like the girls actually want to be there. I might surprise you (considering things we've argued in the past) but I absolutely agree with you here. Well, except for shutting down the porn sites. But sex really doesn't mean anything anymore, and we're obviously wired biologically for sex to mean a lot more than it does. I don't think certain ancient cultures were wrong to view it as a communion with the holy. It sure as hell doesn't mean that anymore, not in this culture.
But then we call those people hypocrites when they have yellow ribbons on their cars and claim that they "support the troops." Is it any different with porn?
I have a friend that is "operationally addicted" to porn. He's married and his wife is well aware of this addiction. Now his specific case in interesting because she likes to have sex and she's the exact type of woman he watches in porn (BBW). Now they're trying to have kids and she has asked him to not watch as much porn because he doesn't orgasm during sex. He blows all of his loads on porn. Can't have babies shooting blanks. I personally it thinks its weird to pick the fantasy of the real life when its the exact same thing. I'm not fan of the argument that "porn alters expectations" if that's the case, there'd only be 10 categories of porn. We all know that's not the case.
And it's "no big deal" for me to turn on the TV and watch people drive cars that cost millions of dollars at speeds up to 300 km/h, inches away from crashing into each other. In my own life, how does this image gel with safe driving? That question doesn't have an answer, because it's a ridiculous question.
I don't think that's a ridiculous question at all, and your analogy isn't a very good one. The truth of the matter is that today's culture allows for more casual hookups more often and sex that is separate from emotion. Men and women are wired differently, and though porn may not effect your mindset, it surely effects women's, especially those directly involved in it. Men may be wired to want to bang every lady in his field of view, but females are historically pickier. Porn is a reflection of a change of Western culture in general. I wouldn't say that porn is the cause of this culture shift, but it does play a role.
Something else I thought of, that is along the lines of women and men simply being wired differently: Why is it that nearly any time a woman is seen up on a stripper pole or in a porn flick, you can almost guarantee that the comment of "daddy issues" is made? Maybe it is because we, for the most part, understand women to not behave in that manner and assume that there is something psychologically amiss when a women will do very sexual things for other's viewing pleasure. I'm very certain that there are ladies who participate in porn, stripping, and prostitution who are completely of sound mind and with perfect upbringings, but how often are these women doing what they do to feed bad habits or as a result of a damaged psyche? I'm not saying that porn should be illegal, but I am saying that it's not a cut and dry thing, either. I'm pretty much with Dcc here, and she said it more concisely than I.
This is a rather silly argument, regardless of how you look at it. "Porn" is such a broad description that covers an insane gamut that it's impossible to make any kind of statement one way or the other. 18 year old college girl flashing her DD's to a camera phone and sending it to her boyfriend? Porn. 16 year old meth addict higher than a kite and being railed by 4 black linebackers until she's covered in jizz? Porn. One, I like. One, not so much. Pick a specific case, then we can discuss it. Until then, it's just bullshit, and not worth any kind of "debate", if you ask me.
I am reminded of an interview on the news I saw with the man who wound up being the last living Canadian veteran of WWI. He was 14 when he went off to war, and was talking about what he did with his life afterwards. He summarized the 1920's as follows: "I'm surprised I didn't get a girl pregnant." The newscaster responded, "I didn't think that sort of thing went on back then." He responded, "Oh, that's been going on since the dawn of time." Prostitution used to be legal in Paris. As in, so legal that a certain Prince of Wales was famous for his visits to the city and enjoying the company of said prostitutes. He commissioned, at great personal expense, a massive sex seat so he could lie down over the prostitutes and have sex with them while at the same time not crushing them with his considerable mass. Men less well off would line up together and pay a few francs to have sex with the down-market prostitutes. Travel books were written containing reviews of dozens of various well-known prostitutes in the city. But lo, only today, over the entire arc of human history, has sex ever been so divorced from emotions and intimacy. A hundred years ago, nobody ever had sex without being in blissful, pure, true, Disney-worthy wuv. Honestly, I'm seeing a lot of sweeping generalizations on this thread. "Sex doesn't mean anything anymore"; "Today's culture allows for more hookups"; "We're wired biologically for sex to mean a lot more than it does". These statements aren't being quantified, and I don't see how individual's attitudes towards sex today are fundamentally damaged because of the prevalence of porn in ways different and worse than they have been before the invention of video. Hey, I'd even argue that we are collectively making great strides and have a healthier attitude towards sex now: rape and pedophilia are viewed as the worst crimes an individual can commit, there is growing, if slow and reluctant, acceptance that women can be sexual with more than one man without being a whore, and homosexuality isn't illegal and a mental illness anymore. A woman whose engagement is broken off is no longer compensated with the damage to her reputation by an engagement ring. Somehow we're doing pretty alright for ourselves.
I agree with this. Our grandparents had the exact same problems as we do today - spousal abuse, adultery, child abuse, etc. The difference is that they swept them under the rug and said "Everything's fine!" Today I think we're doing a better job of meeting those issues head-on.
I agree with what others touched on. Maybe if porn became more mainstream in society and people weren't afraid having an open discussion on sexuality and expression, it wouldn't be so deep in the sleaze. As far as degradation of women? It's hard to tell which ones were degraded when they all have jizz on their faces. /$0.02 Edit: I'm my own grammar nazi.
I am really weirded out by the amount of porn that positively portrays or promotes not consensual sex acts. Beyond "obvious" rape porn, there's an enormous amount of porn that is based on the premise of "Initially she didn't want to, but then his cock was so good that she was suddenly into it." Or the enormous quantity of porn that's based on coercion. "Fuck me or I'm evicting you from your apartment," and the like. Also, there's the whole Lolita thing. Where some woman, who IS 18, is dressed and portrayed to be 14 or 16. And people want this? Ugh. I'm not in favor of actually censoring that sort of thing, as everyone agreed to it.. But the actors, directors, viewers, etc. should spend some more time considering what they're promoting. The idea that people are comfortable watching or producing this stuff is totally fucked up.
Because the vast majority of porn is produced by and for a male audience. There are also relatively fewer (straight) male porn "stars", and they don't get paid as much. There are occupational hazards, but being consent is lower on that list than it is for females. People certainly do question a lot of what goes on in gay male porn. However, het porn is generally marketed and produced for men, so the actors are little more than props. There's not really any pressure for them to consent to acts they don't want. Also, physiologically, most men are incapable of doing porn, whether they want to or not. There's a self-selection that isn't necessary with women. This doesn't really make any sense. Of course she can legally consent to the sex, but it's an ethical grey area (pretty fucking shady in my opinion) to exploit a mentally unbalanced person rather than trying to help them. Not all, but some people who are abused learn to dissociate from sexual activity -- to go "somewhere else." That raises a lot of questions about filming them, questions that deserve answers. It doesn't negate their consent, but it certainly colors it. Straight men aren't trafficked in anywhere near the same numbers as women. Most straight men can't do straight porn, no matter how much they want to. Straight men aren't really featured in movies the same way women are, with pretty rare exception. Straight men run the porn industry, more or less. Is male consent an issue? Always. But it's not at all curious that it's not brought up to the degree. Hey, I like it too. But there's a lot of really fucked up shit that happens, and part of it is because of the consumer. If you don't like porn, then don't watch.[/quote]
On a more general big picture view; if a woman is being "exploited" via porn then what does that say about the society that has put her in a position where she is being exploited. What about her own personal responsibility to herself? Either she is being exploited because she doesn't have other options or those options in her mind are too difficult (e.g. getting a proper job and earning her money that way.) and she is allowing the "exploitation" in order to get money or she is allowing it because she wants to, for whatever reason(s) she may have.
That last paragraph could not have been less clear if you tried. But to answer what I think you're saying: 1) These things are mutually exclusive? 2) There's already plenty of slut shaming in the world. I don't think anyone needs to worry that women aren't being harangued enough for their sexual choices.
Ah, Pornography. Sex still has an amazing selling point, the sex inustry has been around since Jesus supposedly hung out with prostitutes. I have the same views as many of you. Like many things, it can hurt your perception on real life. Everyone agrees on that, and no one wants to support an industry that criminally exploits men or women. While some get the short end of the stick, contracting AIDS or developing addictions, many make a good amount of money and love their job. It's the oldest profession alive and sex is still currency.
[/quote] So why is it ok to treat those men as props? That's cool, but if you do the same thing to a woman, you're degrading her? This is what I don't understand.
Well said, ghettoastronaut. There are many things to debate about porn, but sweeping generalizations ("Sex doesn't mean anything anymore" -- really?) don't exactly move the conversation further. I too would argue that our (western) outlook on sex in general is healthier than ever, mainly because we're pretty big on consent...for everyone. Don't have specific dates/links handy, but I don't think it was too long ago that young girls were sold into marriage as part of property exchanges, and I somehow doubt that the men purchasing were buying the girl they 'loved' the most. Also, didn't the Greeks have young boys for sex slaves or something? Regardless, I'm of the belief that our views on sex and porn are like our views on morality, justice, rights, and all the other human things that make us different from the other animals, in that they are all constantly changing and evolving right along with us. And that, through small, incremental steps, things are getting better. I can vaguely envision an argument for arragned marriages being a good thing for our species as whole, at some time, but we've grown out of it, and I say that's a good thing. As for porn specifically, I think it's more good than bad, though obviously it's tough for me to be objective, since I like it so much. It just seems to make logical sense that having a visual outlet for all the shades of gray on the sexual spectrum is a good thing. Again, assuming consent from all involved. One thing I fully disagree with is the idea that porn puts pressure on girls to look a certain way. Some porn stars are simply stunning, but for the most part, I wouldn't want my theoretical girlfriend to look anything like a 'typical' porn star. Don't think I'm in the minority of guys when it comes to that opinion, either, and when I think of my all time favourite porn stars, only one is blonde, and none have fake tits.
Then who is doing the straight porn? gay men? If straight men can't do straight porn please explain to me how gay men can do straight porn because I am confused.
I think he means that if you took a broad sample of men from the general population, very few would: - Have over an 8" penis - Be able to get it up in a moment's notice in front of dozens of people - Maintain the erection while fucking multiple women at multiple angles, again, with dozens of people watching - Ejaculate on command - Do Points 2-4 several times per day