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Pandora and her skanky box.

Discussion in 'All-Star Threads' started by Nettdata, Oct 25, 2009.

?

H1N1

  1. It killed me.

    11 vote(s)
    4.3%
  2. Have it now, you fucking asshole. Kill me now.

    3 vote(s)
    1.2%
  3. Have it now, meh, just makes me tired.

    4 vote(s)
    1.6%
  4. Had it, and it was hell.

    8 vote(s)
    3.1%
  5. Had it, wasn't that bad.

    25 vote(s)
    9.8%
  6. Most people that I know that said they had it, didn't.

    60 vote(s)
    23.5%
  7. I'm going to get immunized.

    32 vote(s)
    12.5%
  8. I'm NOT going to get immunized.

    188 vote(s)
    73.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Rising Sun

    Rising Sun
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    My cousin was visiting me in NYC and caught the swine flu sometime inbetween riding the subway and eating all kinds of crap food. He was the first reported case in Michigan when he went back (apparently). From what I hear it feels the same as the plain flu.

    I'm not going to get a vaccine because I frankly I can't be bothered to drive across town to get a needle stuck in me by some idiot med student or ignorant hood rat. Plus the last time I got an IV it hurt like hell and fuck that shit.
     
  2. taste_my_rainbow

    taste_my_rainbow
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    I actually voted wrong. I'm getting the H1N1 vaccine as soon as I can. I am a nanny for two families and while neither of them requested that I get it, I'll just feel better about it. I haven't exactly had the best of luck with not getting all the shit that lands me in the hospital (even though I haven't had more than a mild cold in almost 5 years).

    The regular flu almost killed me 6 years ago. At the beginning of the ten minute ride to the hospital I was thinking how stupid it was that I was going to the ER... about a mile from the ER I was having serious problems getting a breath. Serious like we'd-better-hurry-the-fuck-up-or-I'm-gonna-die-in-the-backseat-of-my-VW. They didn't so much as get my name before taking me back.

    I've survived that flu, meningitis and bacterial pericarditis with cardiac tamponade & pneumonia. This & this weren't fun. Someone around here better be getting some shots in... this discussion is making me nervous.
     
  3. Loki

    Loki
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    "Proper testing" is the process of clinical trials that deems a drug or vaccine safe for the market. A quick search of clinicaltrials.gov indicates that the clinicals for the H1N1 vaccine are far from completed. Therefore, your statement that vaccine has already gone through "the same testing that everything else goes through" is wrong. The vaccine has been administered to the general public for a couple months now, obviously before the completion of clinical trials. The H1N1 hysteria in 1976 resulted in a vaccine that was pushed to market and, shortly thereafter, resulted in an increased risk for Guillan-Barre syndrome. Hopefully this doesn't happen in this case, but no one can say with any authority right now that the vaccine is safe or not. Indeed, in the cases of drugs like Vioxx or DES, even after they passed clinical trials, issues arised afterward. So, as I said in my earlier post, why take the risk if you don't need to?
    You're right - I did use resistance (typically reserved for drugs) in the wrong context here. However, you essentially echo what I said about viral mutation except you're not taking the next step. The additional selective pressure on the virus by our vaccinated immune systems leads to a more rapid mutation to the next strain by an already extremely adaptable virus. Whether or not our immune systems will be able to recognize the new strain and protect us, like in the case of the elderly in the 1918 flu, is not as easily determined as you indicate. That would solely depend on the extent of the mutation(s). My point (which I admittedly did not make very clear) was that the pressure put on the virus by us in the form of extensive vaccination could only accelerate this process. You're right insomuch as it may or may not be more lethal, but why gamble?
    According to the CDC, multi-dose formulations of the H1N1 vaccine (currently the most commonly used) contain Thimerosal. The argument "It's mercury, it's bad" is most definitely not inherently emotional or unscientific. No one would argue that Mercury is non-toxic. With regard to Thimerosal, the major metabolite is ethylmercury. This compound has demonstrated a submicromolar IC50 against a human cell line (Chem. Res. Tox. 2008, 468) and a low nanomolar toxicity against a human neuronal model (Tox. & Env. Chem. 2009, 735). It's toxicity is related to its high degree of reactivity toward thiols and DNA. The major pathway for its removal is via the glutathione pathway. I couldn't find one clinical study performed on a group that is glutathione-deficient (other than the elderly). Wouldn't one think this test would be important to the FDA? I'm not trying to defend devolution into Jenny McCarthyism, but to say that mercury toxicity (and indeed Thimerosal toxicity) is unsupported by the data is wrong. Where the argument goes awry is when the dubious correlation to autism is hyped up. We don't have enough data to make conclusions about Thimerosal toxicity and long-term effects in humans, therefore, if you aren't at risk for the relatively non-lethal H1N1, there is no real need to expose yourself to the vaccine.

    Sorry to almost make your head explode. Maybe it's because you resorted to your own reactionary arguments before consulting the literature.
     
  4. shake n bake

    shake n bake
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    Anything is toxic in a high enough dose. That you can pump a cell or lab animal full of enough for their to be issues doesn't tell anything about whether a small dose is harmful. To say thimerosol toxicity in the dosage used in vaccines isn't harmful is support.

    There's very good evidence that mercury in vaccines does not cause autism (I know, you didn't say that, but those people are out there, and possibly on this thread depending on how whacked out carl24 is), two studies are newly out that really make the case against the link.

    http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20091019/mercury-levels-same-in-autistic-other-children

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8268302.stm
     
  5. Loki

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    You're right about that - that's why I added the IC50 data. Low nanomolar concentrations of ethylmercury in tissues are achievable from a vaccine dose. I'm not saying it's going to outright kill people (obviously it doesn't), but there is definitely toxicity associated with it. Whether it's an acceptable level is up to the person getting the vaccine.
     
  6. Allord

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    amyjrn23, I am truly sorry for your loss.

    I am saddened that less than a week into this forum's existence it has already witnessed such a tremendous tumble from sanity. It only took the five short pages of this thread for the facade of your lucid logical mindset to become unwoven and reveal the ragged blood-stained butcher apron of an crazy angry entitled bitch. Here I was thinking you were just a regular middle-aged woman (look at me, I'm sexualizing the career of nursing! Tee hee!) who had the unfortunate preteen girl habit of excessively punctuating her sentences. On that note let me just say that no sentence, no matter how intensely you imagine it being said, will ever end with six exclamation points. I'm sorry if this disheartens you and causes you to spurn the english language as a written art and instead scream in over-excitement at seagulls, the only creatures who truly understand such a single-minded desire to irritate.

    This is the point where Scootah usually comes down on me and tells me to stop scaring away potential unintentional hilarity with objective observation.

    Yes, amyjrn23, you're right. The potential of spreading diseases that can kill, disfigure, or incapacitate innocent and unrelated patients is far less important than your own inalienable right to spread those diseases, should you so choose. I couldn't agree more.

    Truth, Justice, and the spread of death and decay. It's the American way.
     
  7. Primer

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    Seeing as I'm sitting here in bed, wishing for death because swallowing makes me feel like I'm drinking fire and knives and a rising and falling fever keep me in a constant bedridden state, I doubt I'll get the vaccine. Is there any point of going to the doctors? I doubt they will do anything at this point.

    Focus: In the hypothetical, if I had not caught 'da great flu of '09, I would have gotten it. Why not? If that doesn't kill me, something eventually will*.

    *Like a gun to my head if this shit doesn't go away.
     
  8. MoreCowbell

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    I go to a private university, so separation of church and state has very little relevance here.

    Also, i like that your answer was "Hey, there's an option c: lie like a motherfucker and exploit the right to religious freedom for my own selfish benefit."

    You gave up the right to that choice when you voluntarily chose to be a nurse. The same way that iczorro gave up the choice when he joined the military.
     
  9. amyjrn23

    amyjrn23
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    Allord: Please do explain how I am sexualizing the career of nursing? Oh...you must be referring to my avatar pic. Well that's an fairly big assumption for someone with a location that uses the word children and dildos in the same line.

    "I am saddened that less than a week into this forum's existence it has already witnessed such a tremendous tumble from sanity. It only took the five short pages of this thread for the facade of your lucid logical mindset to become unwoven and reveal the ragged blood-stained butcher apron of an crazy angry entitled bitch." Just for my own curiosity, how long did it take you to compose this great literary masterpiece of a sentence?

    Morecowbell- Are you actually trying to compare working in the medical field to joining the military? Really? That's just insanity.

    You people have absolutely lost your minds if you think that by virtue of working at a for profit, privately owned company gives that company implicit control over what chemicals they can inject into my body, regardless of what service that company provides to the public. I have a great solution to this issue. Why don't we vaccinate all the patients when they are admitted to the facility? Oh yeah, I forgot. The patients have rights and are allowed under federal law to refuse any medical treatment or intervention at their discretion.

    "Implicit in and intrinsic to the concept of consent for treatment is the option of refusal. In Cruzan v Director, Missouri Department of Health, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that all U.S. citizens have a constitutional right to refuse unwanted therapy, a right residing in the due process clause of the 14th amendment. Authorized surrogates can exercise this right of refusal on behalf of the incapacitated patients they represent. This right of refusal pertains to all therapies, including life-sustaining therapies and artificial hydration and nutrition, without which patients will die." (1)


    Oh wait a minute. That says "the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that all U.S. citizens have a constitutional right to refuse unwanted therapy." I guess I gave up that constitutional right when I decided to work at a hospital. You know, because I decided to get a college degree and get a job instead of sitting on my ass collecting welfare, I gave up my constitutional rights. I get it now! Thank you bastard child of the TMMB for making me see the error of my ways.
     
  10. iczorro

    iczorro
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    I would say that he's making the logical point that if you want to do something, you have to follow the rules for that thing. Of course you have the right not to get it. They have the right to no longer employ you if you don't. Seems pretty simple to me.
     
  11. Attitude

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    Actually, you did give up that right. Your employer can make you do all sorts of things, like taking drug tests for example, that the state can't. This is an example. Your hospital can make you get the shots, you don't have a right to work there.

    Also, Cruzan isn't on point because its dealing with an individuals right to refuse a feeding tube. Vaccines are different since we need to vaccinate the vast majority of the herd to best protect the herd. Like all constitutional rights, this one isn't absolute and the court would balance the benefit to society against your individual right and I think (though I'm not certain) that you'd lose this one, assuming the state decided to make it mandatory to get the vaccine.

    I got a flu shot, as did my wife and kid. I'd get the H1N1 vaccine if it was available, but it doesn't seem to be.

    After all, whatever is in the h1n1 vaccine can't be half as bad as whatever is in a big mac.
     
  12. Currer Bell

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    Look, I don't give a goddamn about your constitutional rights or what the corporation's motivations are in demanding that you get the vaccine.

    Here's my perspective. According to the CDC, "Studies show that most healthy adults may be able to infect others from 1 day prior to becoming sick and for 5-7 days after they first develop symptoms."

    Do you know what I was doing the day before I started having symptoms of the flu? I was at my child's birthday party. I was serving an ice cream cake that I made. I was handing crap out to people. I was at a skating rink touching stuff all over the place that dozens of kids subsequently touched. I feel like complete shit that I was unknowingly possibly giving other people the virus inside me.

    Your sig line jokes about being in more pussy than most people here will ever see. I'm sure the owners of those pussies would very much like the reassurance that the likelihood of you having the flu when you touch them is slim to none.
     
  13. Deepinit

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    I pretty much lost all care for the medical world after the whole SARS deal. In a world of 6 billion people, the untimely deaths of some 700 over 6 months seemed to spell the end of the world. More than 700 people die each hour around the world for a variety of reasons. Cancer, AIDS, war, car wrecks, murder, suicide, natural causes, natural disasters, etc., etc. At this point there's so much shit that should, could and would kill you that H1N1 is just another line to an already long list.

    It's not that I don't care or value my life, I'm just sick and tired of being told to be afraid of this and take caution of that.

    However if I was a doctor or nurse, I would take it (and support forced immunization for health care workers) since they deal with the sick and those most at risk. I don't know how for them it isn't a no brainer. It'd be like telling a soldier wearing their flak vest and combat helmet on patrol was optional.

    Now, show me evidence that the virus causes the dead to rise up and attack the living a la "28 Days Later" and I'll happily roll up my sleeve and take the shot.
     
  14. silentshadow56

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    Im just honestly curious to know if railing her has the same affect on her speech as running does...

    I think it would be hilarious to awkwardly watch her manuever herself onto my dick and and hobble up and down until she gets a solid rhythm going and then bam...shes fucking away like a champ again
     
  15. MoreCowbell

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    I'm tired of arguing about this. I thought it took a lot to wear out my desire to yell about pointless shit on the internet, but you win. So this will be my final post on this topic.

    No, what iczorro said.

    1) The US Constitution generally deals with the relationship between the state and the citizen/corporation. There are very few exceptions, and this is not one of them.

    Your constitutional rights are irrelevant here, as the government is not a party to this dispute.

    2) YOU STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE. Just like you can refuse an employer mandated drug test. You can refuse. However, if you exercise your right to refuse, your employer can then exercise its right to not employ you.


    The case law you cite is not on point. In addition to what Attitude said, there is a different between the two because a) the government was a party in that case [Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Health], and b) it concerned the right of the hospital to bodily force a treatment upon a person. No one is chasing you around with a needle. The aspect of whether employment is contingent upon a certain medical procedure is beyond the scope of what the Court held in Cruzan.
     
  16. Allord

    Allord
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    Do you know what "reading comprehension" is? Judging by your inability to properly punctuate your sentences in previous posts, I'll bet that's a "no". You see, reading comprehension is when you read words on a page in sentences while understanding the meaning of each word, understanding the meaning of each sentence, understanding the meaning of all the sentences as a whole, and extrapolating from what is said to understand the greater meaning of the paragraph as a combination of what is said and what is implied. This is a very useful skill to have, as it is important when reading just about any written communication.

    When I said I was sexualizing the career of nursing, what I meant was that I was sexualizing the career of nursing. Confusing, I know.

    You see in that post I made several references to you being a woman, and given I didn't put forth any reasoning why I would do such a thing a person reading that post in isolation would think I was basing that judgement solely on you being a nurse.

    The same amount of time it took me to type. 20 seconds? Maybe 30 tops? I know, I'm awesome.

    I'm sorry if my mastery of the English language causes you confusion. You should try reading some literature, it does a person's grasp of vocabulary, punctuation, syntax, and proper use of exclamation points good.

    I don't even know what that means. How does my choice of location make me unfit to call you out? Last I checked I wasn't a crazy bitch dead set on spreading disease and death, so I'm pretty sure I'm not throwing stones out of a glass house.

    Lets get back on topic.

    You are a caregiver.
    You deal with contagious people.
    You are therefore in a position to spread contagious disease from one patient to another.
    You must therefore, as part of your JOB, strive to minimize the disease you unintentionally spread from patient to patient.

    This is why you wash your hands, this is why you use sterilized equipment, this is why in general you practice sterile technique. This is also why you must immunize yourself against disease where possible in order to not become a source of contamination yourself. If you can't understand this, you need to quit right now and become a waitress.

    No, actually, fuck that. You'd probably never wash your hands or not wear gloves and you'd wind up killing people with food poisoning, virulent disease, and poor culinary skill.

    On the plus side, you would gain notoriety as being the "Thyphoid Mary" of the 21st century.
     
  17. carpenter

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    Hi, my name is carpenter and my e-credentials are uhh, measuring stuff and nailing it together?
    Christ, how has this thread not been closed yet?
    I'm not getting the vaccine because, I don't get sick.
    (And, what are e-credentials exactly? Do I have to pay someone for them?)
     
  18. justice101188

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    I'm not getting the vaccine. I babysit for a friend of mine and her daughter's school just closed for the rest of the week due to swine flu, so i'm pretty sure that i will get it anyways.
     
  19. Moondance

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    I've already gotten immunized against it. I'm 19 and I'm working in a preschool--that's practically the key demographic for those who need to get it. I work with too many kids and can not miss many days so I can not afford to come down with the flu. We work with poor families and so the school I work with was offering it to all of our families and staff. The second it was available to me, which was weeks ago for free, I got it. It didn't make me sick and so far I haven't been sick, so as far as I'm concerned, it was the right decision. Although I will admit, I got the nasal injection which feels kinda weird and tastes gross when it drips down your throat.
     
  20. Kratos

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    I selected three options.

    The first: "Most people that I know that said they had it, didn't."

    The second: "I'm NOT going to get immunized "

    The third: "It killed me."

    The first two are self explanitory, the the third needs something. I'm in charge of all of the data feeds to the state specific DOHs regarding H1N1. This is mostly Immunization Registry transfers (i.e. I send them patient data for anyone who has received an H1N1 vaccine in our clinics). This wouldn't be bad if we were like a normal provider, in only one or two states, but we're in 27 (we're the largest chain of retail clinics in the nation). Every state requires something different and they all are fucktards when it comes to their systems. I've bitched before about how some of these states are pretty bad, well some of them are using formats that were first developed in the early 90s if not earlier. Add the fact that they are all slow as shit, poor communicators, and could really give a flying fuck that you have to deal with 26 other states, I've slowly turned into a functional alcoholic the last couple of weeks (those of you who followed the Friday night drinking thread know this).

    Oh yeah, when the first H1N1 scare came out, we saw our Influenza testing shoot up 300% and our positive test ratio drop 400%. Gotta love paranoia.
     
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