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Paleo cooking/lifestyle thread

Discussion in 'Sports Board' started by Frank, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Frank

    Frank
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    Quite a few members on here are paleo or are interested in the idea. Maybe we can use this thread for us nut jobs so we don't clutter up the cooking and workout/exercise threads.
     
  2. mya

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    Well, then, let's get this thing off the ground. I could kiss you for this information alone. By far, my favorite part of this new way of eating is the heavy whipping cream in my coffee (I have been getting the Shatto, so hopefully Paleo friendly then).

    I have been doing some reading, sort of following what I think the principles are, but am planning on getting serious about this next week. Hitting up Whole Foods later to stock up and am trying to put together a shopping list. You guys have any favorite recipe sites or blogs you follow? I keep hearing Marks Daily Apple, so have that bookmarked, but am looking for some that are more recipe friendly.
     
  3. KIMaster

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    I've been reading a little about this recently.

    I know there are a billion experts and studies showing Paleo diets to provide no benefit and even be harmful, and another million that shows it to be enormously beneficial and have no negative side effects.

    On an anecdotal level though, there was period in college where I ate extremely little to no grains, no dairy, and no sugars outside of fruit. During that time, my weight was lower than I would have liked it to be, and my energy level was lower than now, where I make sure to eat more balanced, including a considerable number of grains, and a fair amount of dairy. As such, I'm not sure it would be a good diet for me to try.

    On a theoretical level, I'm not sure why the people promoting this diet believe that 10,000 years isn't enough time for humans to have evolved in some capacity. Certainly, there is a huge, visible physical difference between people now as compared to a few hundred years ago, let alone 10,000.

    I guess everyone is different, but what has been your personal experience with Paleo, Frank?
     
  4. Crown Royal

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    I am a blank slate when it comes to paleo, so if somebody wouldn't mind posting the cliff's notes that would be rad. My dietician said that more often than not it's a "quick fix", and you have to stay on it or what you lost comes back. I know pretty much nothing about it.
     
  5. Frank

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    I definitely can't argue the scientific side of it, the best I would be able to do is parrot Robb Wolf (speaking of which I think this video is the best place to go for newbies, it's about an hour long so wait until you're bored, but it covers a lot) or another person in the field.

    I kind of got into paleo the same way Tucker Max did. I read Tim Ferris' book and followed his diet. I noticed pretty quickly that on top of the weight loss, about 1.25 pounds a week while ignoring his advice on alcohol, I started feeling way better with no grains in my diet. I had heard of paleo before but it sounded downright ridiculous and way too hard to follow at the time, but seeing how just removing grains made me feel I started taking out other things piece by piece until I was full on. I started feeling even better and once I had been away from grains and crap food for a while my cravings have subsided, when I first started the diet I distinctly remember smelling pizza and wanting to cry, now I could honestly care less.

    As a funny aside I feel like the critical point for discipline was passed on St. Paddy's day. I was with one of my buddies up in NH and upon hearing about my diet he silently decided he was going to break me, first he tried to force beer down my throat, then he ate most of my dinner when I wasn't looking so I'd be hungry. I had brought up some chicken drumsticks and peppers because I knew I wouldn't be able to find anything to eat there, he ate everything except one drumstick. When we were out he made sure that my seat was sandwiched between two pizzas and got everyone at the table to insist I have a slice. Then at the end of the night when we were both hammered and at a late night diner (I just ordered water), he purposely ordered a second plate of food and put it right in front of me while he devoured his first plate. I was able to hold strong though!

    As for specific results beyond weight loss, I just plain feel better. It's hard to quantify but I have more energy, I think more clearly and I don't have energy lulls throughout the day like I use to. And these were all problems (that I didn't know were problems) I had when I was thin and in shape too. The most obvious one I look at is when I wake up in the morning I use to struggle to get out of bed, now I'm at about 90% alertness and motivation when I first wake up. No shit, I have an easier and more pleasant time waking up after a night of binge drinking now than a normal morning 6 months ago, it's insane.

    As for your results, how long were you low grain? It takes most people a few weeks to a month to switch over from glucose to ketones as their primary energy source. Also some people, especially thinner guys like you who don't want to lose weight, just roll better on a higher carbohydrate diet which is fine on paleo, you'd just have to keep it to yams, sweet potatoes and fruit.
     
  6. Kampf Trinker

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    Not as much as you would think. We're almost physiologically identical to humans that lived 10,000 years ago. As for a few hundred years ago, the only real difference is that globalization hadn't occurred and gene flow between various populations was less pervasive - but virtually all genes in the human genome were already there, and natural selection hasn't changed us since. In short, the only real difference is that we're mutts now. Humans at the dawn of civilizations were just as smart as us, had all the same emotions, processed food the same way, etc. They just didn't have the luxury of a diet filled with so much variety. Maybe one of the guys from the science thread wants to weight in here, but if you want to talk about huge physical differences between people in genotype rather than those visible differences constructed by society and better quality of life you need to go back 30,000 years, or more; not 10,000.

    *Species can definitely adapt, or even diverge in that time frame, but we didn't.
     
  7. DannyMac

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    The Whole9 (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.whole9life.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.whole9life.com</a>) has a blog as well that is where I am getting started on their Whole30 program. They have a guide, but it is $40 and I haven't bought it yet so I cannot tell you the quality. It apparently has a shopping guide and some recipes in it.

    In terms of one recipe idea, from my research so far this will be returning as a diet staple in our house since it is delicious and Whole30 (not just paleo approved)

     
  8. KIMaster

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    Wow, definitely not a great proponent. In addition to being a complete fucking idiot, Ferris is a documented liar, and encourages steroid use, diuretics, and a whole host of other crazy, bullshit, and often dangerous exercise ideas. In fact, Mike on the Instrength forum did a good job debunking his spiel on the "Colorado Experiment" about how apparently one can exercise an hour a week and gain tons of muscle.

    I would take anything he says with a severe grain of salt.

    I see...so your goal was weight loss? For me, it's usually weight gain, so that might explain part of the difference.

    About 4 years.

    I'm not talking about the genome; obviously, that has stayed the same. But you don't need changes in the genome to observe major, fundamental differences in human phenotypes in a population.

    For instance, humans today are much taller and larger, on average, than they were a few hundred years ago. Perhaps part of it is greater nutrition, but even aristocrats who had plenty to eat back then were far smaller than the average human today.

    I'm not a biologist, but specifically, where are you getting this belief that 10,000 years is too short a span to evolve to processing certain new types of food? It might be too short of a span for many things, but slight changes in digestion to accommodate an edible food humans happily devoured beginning 10,000 years ago? I would definitely like to see some science and figures behind that.

    I don't know anything about the intelligence/emotion of the average person 10,000 years ago, (and I'm willing to bet no one in the world does) although I can agree it might be the exact same. But that's mental evolution, which is very different from the evolution of certain purely physical aspects.

    Again, I'd love to know what your source for food-processing in humans being the same now as 10,000 years ago. It may be true, but it seems counter-intuitive considering that humans have constantly been changing their diets over human history, and it would stand to reason evolution would make our bodies adapt to it.

    Again, while macro-evolution on the scale of a different genome takes millions of years, micro-evolution on the scale of people becoming taller or larger takes far less time.
     
  9. jdoogie

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    My two favorite sites to use for recipes are [urlhttp://paleodietlifestyle.com/paleo-diet-recipes/#recipes]The Paleo Diet Lifestyle[/url] and Paleo Plan.

    The Paleo Diet Lifestyle site gets updated fairly regularly, about once a week or so with new recipes, however, there's really no order or searchability to the recipes, other than scrolling through the entire list to find what you want.

    Paleo Plan is the exact opposite; very easy to navigate, all the recipes are broken down by meal and/or protein type, but new recipes are added very rarely. However, there is quite a collection already available, so you would be hard pressed to get through all of them quickly.

    As far as blogs, someone here just turned me onto Robb Wolf's podcast, and if you can handle a heavy dose of really scientific speak time to time, it's definitely worth a listen. I've actually gone back and started downloading the whole series from the beginning, as there's about 120 hours or so of info.
     
  10. Dcc001

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    Cliff's notes version of Paleo for people (taken from <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theclothesmakethegirl.com/paleo-101/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theclothesmakethegirl.com/paleo-101/</a> - I have her cookbook, it's pretty good):

    Personally, since I started this I've noticed:
    - Clearer skin
    - About 10lbs of weight loss, with no change in exercise patterns
    - ZERO allergies anymore; hayfever is totally gone, and I was up to two Clarityns a day, even in winter
    - If for some reason I re-introduce most of those foods into my diet, I feel like absolute hell for at least two days.
    - I keep a small amount of dairy in my diet; Greek yogurt, occasionally milk, etc.
    - I just re-introduced wild rice, and I'm doing well with it there. Not technically Paleo, but not as bad as wheat or other heavily genetically modified grains.

    If you want a FANTASTIC cookbook - Paleo or otherwise - check out Mark Sisson's Quick and Easy Meals. I use it more than I've ever used any other cookbook, especially for the breakfast ideas. Top notch stuff.
     
  11. Dcc001

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    Also, for those interested, check out a book called Wheat Belly.

    The cons of this book are that it isn't written with a great deal of scientific rigor. The author is a preventative cardiologist from Boston (if I recall) who began to notice patterns in the patients presenting to him with heart problems. The super morbidly obese, diet trends, exercise trends, etc.

    The interesting part of the book, for me, was when he broke down how the food industry has altered the wheat plant over the last 60 years. To suggest that the flour you use is similar to the flour your grandmother used is laughable. The grain no longer resembles itself.

    Kinda scary, really interesting.
     
  12. mya

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    I just want to comment on what DCC said based on an experience that I just had at Trader Joes (of all places). The cashiers had to do a hand off in checking me out, and the new guy commented that they were doing allergy switch offs to go blow their noses or whatever. And it dawned on me, that in the worst allergy year in ages, I feel great. Not a sneeze, not a watery eye, nothing. Kind of funny that you mention that, I hadn't made any sort of correlation before. I also hadn't noticed that I didn't have allergies. Anyway, I came around to thinking that this was something that I wanted to do was after I did a pretty drastic diet in which I cut out EVERYTHING for several weeks. all processed foods, alcohol, added sugar, wheats, etc (I kept my caffeine). Essentially it was a detox of sorts. I felt really pretty great, like Frank said I was clearer minded, I didn't have the huge energy level swings that I used to have, etc. So once it was over I started looking around to a lifestyle type thing to encompass a similar idea, yet obviously not as restrictive. So here I am. I have basically been doing this already, but have been probably having more dairy than is allowed (greek yogurt, I love cheese on my salads). But I am just getting started so am excited that this thread was started.

    With all of that being said, one area that I have noticed that I am struggling with and don't feel so great. I will copy and paste this from the workout thread to see if anybody else has any ideas....

    So, here is my current question. I run, or rather, I used to run, now I struggle. I have trained for and run a dozen half marathons, so I know the difference between "I'm tired" and "I can't" and I have been tilted into the "I can't" category on my long-ish runs since I started the no carb thing a couple months ago. Today, for example, I set out for 8 miles, after 3 miles I was exhausted, my legs felt like cement, I was light headed, etc. So, I turned around and walked pretty much the entire way home. It was also quite hot, I only brought water since I don't think Cavemen had access to Gatorade, so that may have been part of it. I have managed three 8 mile runs on the diet, but none were pretty and by the end (or before), I was just simply out of gas...can't go anymore. I am supposed to be doing a half marathon in two weeks, and frankly, I honestly don't think I can finish it with the way I feel now. In poking around, it looks as if Paleo favors more quick bursts of energy exercising, so are Paleo and any sort of endurance type of thing just mutually exclusive?
     
  13. DannyMac

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    Try increasing your fruit intake, your tuber intake, and your intake of dark leafy greens. See if that helps with your energy level during runs. Remember that Paleo is not a No Carb diet, it is a no grain and no legume diet.

    If you still feel okay in your gut with dairy, then I wouldn't worry about it. If you feel bloated and nasty after a greek yogurt, then you might want to consider cutting back. The point of lifestyle is to feel optimal and each of us is different enough that we can be more of less restrictive in food sources. For example, I don't think my wife will be able to re-introduce dairy without consequence, I on the other hand will probably be fine.
     
  14. Kampf Trinker

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    This goes beyond the scope of what we are talking about, but this a good primer for why humans today exist with the same adaptations as humans 10,000 years ago. The vast majority (as in 99%+) of our traits that separate from other animals evolved while we lived in hunter gatherer societies.

    Well, the way we react to a diet isn't going to change unless the genome changes. Humans are much taller today, but you have to keep in mind that while aristocrats had access to plenty of food their diet was still severely restricted by today's standards, and medical care was abysmal.

    10,000 years isn't too short. That's why I put that footnote in the previous post. There's an ongoing to debate in the scientific community about the unique case of human evolution. Evolution says the environment adapts you, you don't adapt to the environment. That sounds like semantics, but understanding the difference is important. Most scientists believe the reasons you see a stunt in human evolution is because we were so adaptive. You survived by being smarter, making better tools, and more efficient food procurement strategies rather than accruing a new set of characteristics. That's why this discovery was so shocking. They aren't humans, but they adapted to an island life in the same way reptiles and mammals do - by getting smaller. That isn't supposed to happen. We adapt, we don't get adapted!

    The diets have changed suddenly, as have our strategies for mass producing foods. You're thinking about evolution backwards here. We didn't just change because of differences in what we ate - that made us healthier. Instead evolution adapted us to be able to consume a wide variety of food. There's plenty of food we ate 10,000 years ago that doesn't even exist today. And let's scale back 400,000 years ago when these changes in our digestive system were happening. We were gaining access to new foods through hunting and foraging techniques, and spreading to new climates that weren't available to us before. Again, let's take a human and an animal here. Let's say one species of prey that a predator was heavily dependent on disappears. To survive that species needs to adapt to better hunting new prey. You're going to see a lot of those predators die off while the species adapts, maybe even go extinct. Humans solved these problems through ingenuity rather than requiring a new set of physical tools.

    Yep, and it's also worth pointing out that some species change dramatically in size, but exhibit virtually no other changes whatsoever. That isn't the case with human evolution though. Technology and the economies of scale made possible by the industrial revolution are responsible. For the theory that size differences in our species can be accounted by evolution rather than the former would be claiming that significant adaptations in our size were forced on us by natural selection in the last 100 years, BUT survival rates have gone up exponentially and there was nothing present in the environment demanding these size increases were necessary for our survival. Plus, evolution just doesn't work that fast, with rare exceptions where a large percentage of the species is exterminated.
     
  15. DannyMac

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    Fantastic link that I got in a rep comment:

    <a class="postlink" href="http://nomnompaleo.com/post/16824406467/the-whole30-recap-every-single-day" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://nomnompaleo.com/post/16824406467 ... single-day</a>

    It's everything she ate each day on her Whole30 routine.
     
  16. Dcc001

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    I don't know if I read this somewhere, or if I'm making it up, but I'm beginning to believe that all the crap we force on our systems is taxing us in a way we simply don't realize. I never would have thought that my immune system was so busy trying to process all the hybrid grains and chemical crap that it had no gas left to fight things like hayfever allergies or the chronic coughs I used to get. Everyone in our office has been sick this year; especially the ones with kids. I haven't so much as had an off day since I started this.

    I did have a session with a personal trainer, though, and half-way through I [whatever you want to call it]. I don't think it was bonking, because the session wasn't nearly long enough. Maybe too much too soon, but then again maybe I had no energy stores from all the veggies and no carbs. I've been meaning to test it out and see if I can do the same session on my own, but this damned muscle strain has kept me from doing too much physical activity.
     
  17. KIMaster

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    I'll say this about the Paleo diet; I have no doubt that it aids in losing weight. Not only did I see this on myself, but even my grandparents used to tell me that cutting bread and milk out of a diet causes you to become skinnier.

    I'm not sure what the link has to do with the subject we're discussing. The article states that human psychology hasn't changed much over the last 10,000 years. (Which once again, I feel is a reasonable claim)

    It says absolutely nothing about how the human digestive system has changed over those same 10 millennium, which is the part related to a paleo diet.

    Why? And what exactly counts as a "genome change"? (By the way, I would be very surprised if the percentage of nucelobases for every single gene has remained virtually constant for the last 10,000 years)

    The genome between ourselves and ancestors living even 2 million years ago is incredibly similar too, and yet, there are huge, fundamental differences in terms of phenotypes that one can't ignore as simply different nutrition or medical care.

    Again, I'm no biologist. Is there any research about the evolution of human digestive systems that you're working from here? I would very much like to see it.

    Even controlling for these elements, I believe humans were much smaller back then. We can even compare humans that lived 100 years ago to those that live today while controlling for medical care and diet and see a major difference in size.

    This sounds reasonable, but what food(s) did you specifically have in mind?

    I don't feel like poring over all the stuff written about Paleo from both sides, so are there some key pro-Paleo research articles and studies I should know about?
     
  18. Kampf Trinker

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    Dude, you're just coming at a few things from the wrong angle. I'll make a post in the science thread later tonight with some better sources. You might want to check that link again too, they discussed food as well as psychology.
     
  19. Frank

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    - He really only recommends steroids for absolute optimal performance, not everyday Joe.
    - I haven't read his whole book, but I don't see where he recommends diuretics.
    - I don't remember a debunking, I just remember it being stated that the guy in the experiment was already a physical specimen and he was basically just regaining muscle mass so he had much less work to do. Ferris explains he uses outliers like this as a guiding point to make an average person's goals to be more easily attainable and they should not be used as a guarantee for everyone's gains

    Yeah, being fat blows, wouldn't recommend trying it.

    So if you were low grain for four years, were you doing it just for experimentation? What did the rest of your diet look like, was it just hummus and beans? Were you liberal with the meat intake? Just trying to get a feel for where you were at. There may have been other factors causing you to lose too much weight and keeping your energy levels down, or like I mentioned before, maybe you just run better on a higher carbohydrate diet.

    I just want to reiterate that this is not a 30 day churn and burn diet, this is a lifestyle for a lot of happy, healthy people looking to lose weight, add weight and optimize performance. I highly suggest you look up guys like Art De Vany, basically the Godfather of the paleo diet and an economist by trade no less, and Robb Wolf who has a strong scientific background but can explain things without putting you to sleep.
     
  20. Dcc001

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    And I would also like to put in the humble request that we not turn this thread into one long, boring diatribe where we debate the minutia of this or that scientific study. By all means, let's talk about the science, but the focus (I feel) is for people to talk about Paleo how it relates to them personally, share recipes or tips, and inform. Not to out argue the merits of this or that study/scientist/quack/whatever.