Re: Occupy America We should probably note here that it's a good idea to back your posts up with links to news sources if you are making claims about fact.
Re: Occupy America I would be very interested to see a viable third party, however, there haven't been any truly viable third party in American history. The closest was the Bull Moose party (a la Teddy Roosevelt), but even that was largely unsuccessful in achieving its stated goals. Personally, I don't have an ideological problem with a two party system, however, there is a fair argument that since Reagan, America has only been a one party system. As to some of the other posts, I haven't really seen a mass of demonstrations like this nationwide in my lifetime. I'm not saying that makes the 'movement' viable, but I am curious as to where this may lead politically.
Re: Occupy America There generally aren't more than two parties at a time, but it's not unheard of to see a third party eat the demographics of another party and take over, such as the Republicans did to the Whigs.
Re: Occupy America <a class="postlink" href="http://www.mediaite.com/online/daily-caller-uncovers-occupy-dc-organizer-admiting-to-paying-protestors/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediaite.com/online/daily-ca ... rotestors/</a> <a class="postlink" href="http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/228475/20111010/occupy-wall-street-protests-protestors-paid-hired-jobs-volunteer-chicago-hispanic.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/228475/ ... spanic.htm</a> 2 links pulled up by a quick google. I had a better one which I would have saved had I realized that people didn't know it already. I'm still looking for it.
Re: Occupy America So we've got a handful of hispanics getting paid to protest (surprise?) and one baseless article (prove the guy isn't BS-ing). Let's see that better one.
Re: Occupy America Sure, no third party has ever "took root". But as far as affecting the national dialogue? Hell, look at Eugene V. Debs, Teddy Roosevelt. Huey Long, back when the Democratic party had a legitimate left wing, would probably have to go third-party today. I think there is absolutely an opportunity there. edit: Should say, never has a third party taken root as a third party. There have been plenty that supplanted an existing party to become part of the two party system.
Re: Occupy America Seriously, we all knew coming into this thread that we were going to have to work hard to keep the discussion intelligent and worthwhile. Let's not kill that on page four with some asinine bullshit conspiracy theories. Back on topic.
Re: Occupy America So what if they're getting financial and material support; what difference does that make? I read the list of demands Aetius posted and as far as I'm concerned they're all legitimate. Just because some union wants to pitch in and help them financially doesn't invalidate the cause. Focus: So far the arguments against this protest/movement have been: -They're all a bunch of spoiled, entitled youths/hippies who are too lazy or entitled to get a job -Other people have it worse, so they should shut the fuck up -They own/use products manufactured by corporations, so they're hypocrites -Some protesters are getting paid Really, we (TiBers) can't do better than this? Here's my challenge to the people who disapprove of this movement: Aetius posted a link here with the movement's principles & demands. If you disagree with those arguments then say so. Or, if you agree with them but think the movement is not the way to get them across then say what you think is a better way. But fuck, let's bring the level of discourse here above typical Facebook fare.
Re: Occupy America I wanted to post regarding the actual protests but it's getting late and I'll just quickly point out what a bullshit argument you're trying to make. Yeah, there's always going to be people that fall through the cracks in the system, but that doesn't make for a reason to not have a system, or to not have systems adressing specific issues. Is a program that reduces the prison population to a tenth of it's previous size still worth it even though you don't get rid of inmates all together? And how much would it be worth to you.
Re: Occupy America So we've got a handful of hispanics getting paid to protest (surprise?) and one baseless article (prove the guy isn't BS-ing). Let's see that better one.[/quote] The article's formatting is broken by the youtube video. It seems like the text just stops, but there's a video further down the page backing up the guy's claims: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/228475/20111010/occupy-wall-street-protests-protestors-paid-hired-jobs-volunteer-chicago-hispanic.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/228475/ ... spanic.htm</a>
Re: Occupy America I'm not going to dispute the legitimacy or illegitimacy of those articles, but I will ask again: Why do you think that if some of the protesters are getting some form of compensation it invalidates the principles and goals of the movement as a whole?
Re: Occupy America I had never seen that list of demands before. I had seen this one: <a class="postlink" href="http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed- ... st-moveme/</a> I could pick both lists apart easily. But apparently they admit that there is no Official List of Demands. So what do you want me to do? Counter everything that they demand happen but they haven't demanded? Or admit like I said before that they are an aimless group coming together for no real purpose? Simple. The moment a group deriding corporate greed is paid for their derision, the whole thing takes on a laughable form of hypocrisy.
Re: Occupy America I remember my first straw man. What OWS is evolving into is very exciting. Ben & Jerry's announced their support for OWS on their website. The movement gaining a significant corporate supporter is crazy. I don't think they need to create a specific policy proposal because the primary objective was to raise awareness on corporate/political influence. Comparing OWS to the Tea Party seems disingenuous after Cornell West made a rally speech. There are a lot of politically apathetic young adults who would vote for a 3rd party so it will be interesting to see where this movement goes. Side note: Lasersailor is a troll. Don't let him derail an awesome thread.
Re: Occupy America Pick the one I posted apart, I'm curious as to the counter arguments. But cut the "they're being paid" shit; even if the links you've posted are 100% accurate it's still a totally irrelevant sample, and I'll be deleting any further posts on the topic.
Re: Occupy America Ben and Jerry's has to be my favorite "No, we seriously don't give a fuck, we just want to get high and make ice cream" company in existence. I once left my wallet in a Ben and Jerry's and the hippies that worked there tracked me down six states away to get it back to me. Good peoples.
Re: Occupy America Well, no. I mean, we capitalize the "T" for "the" and "i" for "Idiot" is lowercase. I don't think I have the time, the comprehensive knowledge, or the debate skills to adequately meet your challenge. But, since I'm an "idiot" I'll chip in a few comments. Grievances: This list either contained facts that I cannot confirm or deny, as they are wrapped in opinion (such as "Large financial institutions have moved off the partnership model . . . and stuff") or, if true, could be defended as response to the conditions and regulations under which they required to operate. (I don't know.) So, I'll comment on a few of the Demands: Robust oversight of all financial activities, both internal and through strong federal regulation. We have robust (too robust for me)l oversight now, including those institutions that are quasi-governmental like Fannie Mae, and that simply didn't work. I would favor less federal regulation. Fines for any legal violation of an amount significantly in excess of the profit derived from such violation. I'm not sure what that means. Corporations, by their very nature, were set up to derive profit. They should not be in any way punished for maximizing those profits to whatever level they desire. However, they should in every way be punished for violating the eixsting laws. Robust laws requiring the documentation of all activities and internal decision making, and strong prosecution of any institution that fails, for any reason, to deliver such documents upon subpoena. Oh goodie, more government forms to complete. Yes, that will certainly help investors. I have seen first hand companies that were crippled by Sarbanes-Oxley. One of whom took their company back private, with the help of a foreign investor (Australia, not China), because S-O had put such a strain on them. (There were other reasons, but that was a major one.) Changes to compensation strucutre (sic), especially at the executive level, that would reward long term stability and solvency over short term gains. Hey, I wish I were a millionaire CEO, too. But, they put themselves in position to receive that compensation. As long as they follow the law, they deserve whatever their Board is willing to pay them. There are plenty of corporations with CEO's that don't break the law, or screw their employees that shouldn't be penalized by government because some don't.
Re: Occupy America Probably what bothers me most about the movement is the slogan 'we are the 99 percent.' Bullshit. If you were the 99 percent nearly everyone in America would be out there protesting. You're maybe the 20 percent, and that's being generous. Call me optimistic, but I don't believe America is in such a funk that 99 out of 100 people are struggling just to get by. I agree that the top 1 percent in America is hideously rich and paid much more than what they're worth. Still, while they should be taxed slightly heavier it should not reach the point where we are undermining capitalism.
Re: Occupy America I don't have anything against funding. Paying people to support something they might not believe in just because there is a paycheck in it for them seems disingenuous. "Astroturfing" swings both ways.