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Occupy THIS, Commie!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by audreymonroe, Oct 6, 2011.

?

I think the Occupy wherever protesters are

  1. Heroes, protesting effectively about something that needs fixing

    21 vote(s)
    10.8%
  2. Whining pointlessly, but about a real problem

    91 vote(s)
    46.9%
  3. Confused and protesting about the wrong thing

    42 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. Lazy unemployable commies who should enlist to toughen up

    32 vote(s)
    16.5%
  5. Distracting us from the mission to occupy Chater's pants

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. audreymonroe

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    So, I know that this couldn't possibly maintain the "no politics" rule, but since there was a thread about the London riots I thought maybe this one could work, or at least be narrowed enough to at least try and avoid it turning into a total shit show.

    Focus: Occupy Wall Street. It's turning into a big deal, and there are tons of different talking points to discuss. These are just a few off the top of my head:

    Do you think this is an effective method in creating change? Could this be the huge movement of protest of this era to really stir things up? What do you think is working, and what are your criticisms?

    Is this a huge symbol of "the entitlement generation" complaining about having student loans and moving back home, or is it the symbol of the breaking point that's politicizing the generation that's largely criticized for being apathetic?

    In the wake of random pepper spraying and the confusing and controversial story of rounding up and arresting 700 people on the Brooklyn Bridge, what are your thoughts on how the police are handling the situation? Are they keeping the peace, fairly bringing criminals to justice, or stepping out of line?

    What about the media coverage of the protests? One of the things that struck me most is that I didn't hear a damn thing about it from anywhere until the aforementioned pepper spraying and 700 arrests, when the media kind of had to start covering it. An interesting opinion I read was that they were ignoring it since they were still owned and essentially controlled by the very people/companies/ideals that the protests were rallying against - does that hold any merit? What does that say about our media these days? How about the hilarious hypocrisy of the right supporting the Tea Party protests as examples of what it means to be a True American, while slamming the Wall Street protesters as anti-American, freedom-hating Nazis?

    Have at it.
     
  2. scootah

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    <a class="postlink" href="http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/</a> is heart breaking. I don't understand how anyone can look at the stories coming out of the occupy wall street thing and not think 'unless these people are all massively misrepresenting their situation, America's social politics are badly broken and in need of massive reform.'

    I also can't understand at this point how anyone could argue against bumping taxes on the wealthy in the US.
     
  3. downndirty

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    Occupy America

    Ok, it's gone on too long to ignore.

    Occupy Wall Street has spread to various cities in the US & Canada. Also, the "hacktivist" (ugh) group Anonymous has promised to "erase" the NYSE from the Internet on the 10th of October.

    Discuss, if you can be civil about it.

    Focus: I'm out of the US at the moment, but I can sympathize with the rage. The "movement" doesn't exactly have clear goals or an expressed purpose, but with that many people nationwide displaying such a great deal of passion and interest it's worthy of attention. In my lifetime, this is unprecedented because aside from a select few (and I do mean few), not many people in the US give a shit about politics enough to protest. Until now.
     
  4. Juice

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    Re: Occupy America

    Unprecendented? Love them or hate them, I'm pretty sure the Tea Party is/was much bigger than these protests, at least from where they are at this point.

    For the sake of not starting a retarded flame war, I'll try and be as objective as possible:

    -I'm not quite sure what the focus is with these protests. It's called Occupy Wallstreet, but when you hear the individuals and their causes, they vary greatly. Maybe that's the point? Just general unhappiness with established two-party politics and the economy? I know the general theme is the "rich" vs the "poor", but it's still a little fuzzy.

    -I don't think a lot of politicians will want to attach themselves to this, especially Obama. He gets many large corporate contributions, including some from banks on Wall Street. He's smart enough to keep mum on this aside from a little commentary here and there, but for the most part I'd be surprised if he really jumps in and tries to adopt it.

    -These protests are popping up in many cities every week. It's interesting how fast OWS and the Tea Party protests spread. I wonder if this could have happened without the Internet.
     
  5. Frank

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    Re: Occupy America

    I don't get it, I really don't, what do these people want? Do they want companies to just start handing out cash for no reason? I mean at least Scootah has a clear vision (which I respectfully disagree with) about taxing the rich more. But if you watch a lot of these videos people just ramble on about greed and how the corporations control the media and only care about money like it's some sort of new revelation. I feel bad because I'm sure the people who organized it had clear goals (which I'm sure I would respectfully disagree with) but my image of this whole thing is overshadowed by the idiots.

    The argument that cracks me up the most are the people that are bitching about how the banks are expecting them to pay their student loan debt. You took their money, they want it back, how is that greedy? Why don't you focus on the college that YOU enrolled in that charged you the ridiculous tuition and lied to you about how prosperous your opportunities would be?

    Get a job you hippy fucks.
     
  6. katokoch

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    Re: Occupy America

    There was 100-some people protesting in downtown Minneapolis yesterday. Without the internet? No way.

    I think the protest would be much, much more effective if there was one main objective.

    That and I'd like to ask the fella in the glasses and hat in Chater's pic if it was really Wall Street that forced him to take out those student loans. There are some in the 99% that I genuienely feel for and give real fuel to the movement, and some that I think have the typical degree=job sense of entitlement that are jumping on board.
     
  7. Luke 217

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    Re: Occupy America

    Count me in as one of many that don't understand what exactly they want. Yeah,, yeah, I know, you're the 99%. I've read some of your signs, I get it, you're poor, and you think its the government or big business's fault.

    What I would really like to know,,, is how many of these 99% are registered voters? Because we have this nifty thing here, that if you want to change something around this shitpit, you get to.
    I have no evidence to back this up, but I'm guessing that less than 25% are voters.


    Now leave me alone, I'm going to occupy my shitter for 10-12 minutes, and its gonna be upwards of 99% smelly.
     
  8. Kubla Kahn

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    Having lived in Shanghai and traveled through China* and Vietnam I'd say there are millions (probably hundreds of millions, if not billions worldwide) who'd give their kidneys to have the same problems a lot of these 99%er pictures have**. The only thing I can get behind is limiting corporate influence, as well as big labor, big etc, in government. Campaign finance reform and lobbyist reform are two other broad areas that things need to be changed. Otherwise the protest have completely muddled ill defined terms that vary person to person. A lot of the people in youtube videos Ive seen want some form of anarchism with a strong all powerful government to crush BANKSTERS GREED. At least the Tea Party seemed to have a coherent message, limited constitutional government. But the way I see it playing out is that it will divided congress and people even more as OWS gains the same influence as the Tea Party.

    As for taxing millionaires. Some of the hardlined rhetoric is pretty radical on either side. I think Warren Buffet is being a little dishonest with his comparison of taxation on capital gains vs. wage income. Historically, capital gains are taxed lower for a reason. As people are more willing to sit on capital until they can sell them at lower tax rates, since they only pay off when you sell them. If you look at the records the years following tax cuts on capital gains usually followed with much higher capital movement as well as the resulting increase in tax revenues.

    There are a couple of things I'd agree with doing. Raising tax rates on millionaires IF there was an equal lowing of tax rates for the lower brackets. IE the revenue would go to pay for the lower tax brackets instead of funding what ever spending sprees congress wants to go on. Let the anti-supply side folks see if letting the lower classes keep more of their money would really spurn the economy like the claim. I'd also be willing to eliminate tax brakes and loopholes if a flat tax would be implemented.


    * I found it funny that that viral video of that black dude, not sure if he was rapper or comedian, claiming he couldn't explain to his kids why communism is bad and capitalism is good if the Chinese are beating our asses economically. First off China would still be in the third century if they hadn't instituted the free market reforms they have. Second, there is a myriad of reasons why this Chinese boom will eventually become a huge bust. Not to mention the ungodly amounts of official corruption at every level of their government. We seriously have no clue here in the states of what real corruption is.

    ** I had to laugh reading one about a girl with 40k in school debt because she couldn't find work in her major, theater. The cynic in me also chuckled at the one where the girl dropped the bombshell at the end of her note that said she turned to sex work to pay off school loans.
     
  9. gtg2k

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    Re: Occupy America

    Honestly, I'm surprised OWS hasn't made it's way to Memphis in a big way. There are thousands upon thousands in this city in very dire straits. Unable to afford utilities, having to choose between food and medicine/rent/other necessary expenses, no insurance, and just stranded in a bleak situation.

    My wife and I have gotten lucky. I was able to pay for college (though if I want a better job, I'll need to go back at some point), my wife's student loans for grad school were forgiven in a program she qualified for, and we were able to find a nice house in a decent neighborhood for an EXTREMELY reasonable price. We're about to take 10 days of vacation going to Iowa and New Orleans. We have some debt, but not a burdensome amount.

    How do we do it? We spent 2.5 years in a cramped little 1 bedroom apartment; I drove the same car for 11 years and purchased my current car for $2500; we're big on coupons; I'm pretty cheap and try to spend as little as possible; we constantly look for ways to save and sometimes take on side jobs to make extra cash. Honestly, I look at our situation, and that of other people, and realize how lucky I've been and how lucky I continue to be.

    I feel for many of the people in trouble, but the idea that just because you went to college, you should make $50K right out of school is preposterous. I actually worked with a kid a few years ago that said exactly that. Of course, this kid also had always lived at home with mommy and daddy, and basically had his ass wiped for him. Truly, this is the Entitlement Generation.
     
  10. ASL

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    Re: Occupy America

    I can join in on not being 100% sure of what these 99% want. They've made it to Albuquerque, and are "occupying" a park on UNM's campus, right off of central. This is not a nice area.
    What's better, is that they were on the street with signs, chants, guitars, etc etc last night at midnight. MIDNIGHT! What in the flying fuck good is that doing? Protesting to homeless people, drunks and gangsters seems like it would be rather ineffective.

    I also feel it necessary to comment on just how they go about these protests. They protest Corporate America. Big companies are ruining everything for everyone, right? Where'd you buy that tent you're occupying America with? What about that tarp? What about the markers you used to write on that giant piece of paper?

    If you want change that badly, and feel so entitled to not having to pay debts you incurred, go figure out a way to actually work towards your goal. Chanting on the side of a road at 12am on a Monday night is ineffective.

    I think this has a lot to do with the "Entitlement Generation." We're unhappy about something, so someone somewhere should completely change the system to fit our unrealistic wants.
     
  11. E. Tuffmen

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    Re: Occupy America

    Count me in on not understanding what the protestors want. Like others have said, I think it is just anger and frustration at government in general, and it is totally misdirected. Say what you will, but what the American government has been doing seems to be the exact opposite of what is really needed. Every time they do anything it makes things worse. I have heard that trillions of dollars are being hoarded by banks and companies. I don't blame them. It seems to me that the government is like a bunch of thugs standing in an ally with bats just waiting for someone to come along so they can rob them. Why would any company put any money out there when the government is just going to take as much of it from them as possible. I sure wouldn't. I'd keep that shit under my mattress.

    I grew up in the eighties and I don't remember times ever being this bad ever. Say what you will about the eighties, but man the economy was doing great compared to what we have going on now. Why don't we try some of that again? I just don't understand. It really does feel like our own government is trying to bring us all down. I'm genuinely afraid of the future and I have NEVER felt that way before in my life. There is just NO common sense from anyone anymore. It's all about whose ideology is going to prevail and no one is stopping to look at the absolute train wreck we are becoming. I look at the current crop of candidates for the next election and I don't see any hope. They are all a bunch of clowns. Doesn't matter what party either.
     
  12. kuhjäger

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    Re: Occupy America

    Ultimately every protest these days turns into a shitload of people with a shitload of mixed demands, and people then trying to grandstand and be the most crazy, original attention whore they can be. Already these have turned into nothing more than a series of parties.

    The lack of coherent demands is an important part of this issue. No one knows what they want. Most of these people are there and mad because they have been told to be mad because people have something they don't want.

    I am reminded of the protests at my university after the school was forced to raise fees about 1-2k a year after the financial melt down.

    The protest was about nothing more than a hike in student fees. Here is the list of demands (spoilered for the ridiculous lengths)

    1) Repeal of the 32% fee increase

    2) Stop all current construction on campus

    3) UC funds and budget are made transparent

    4) Verbal and written commitment to Master Plan

    5) Total Amnesty to all people occupying buildings and involved in student protest concerning budget cuts including: Doug G., and Bryan Glasscock and Olivia Egan-Rudolph

    6) Keep all resource centers open: E Squared, Women's Resource Center, and all other diversity centers

    7) Keep the campus child-care center open

    8) Repeal cuts to the Community Studies Field Program

    9) Re-funding the CMMU field studies coordinator positions

    10) Get verbal and written agreement from Admins to shut-down campus for one day for the purpose of educating students on the budget cuts

    11) Said support for AB656

    12) Said commitment to work-study for all who are eligible

    13) Making UCSC a safe campus for all undocumented (AB540) students and workers

    14) Keeping LALS professors Guillermo Delgado and Susan Jonas

    15) Repeal all furloughs to all campus employees, renege the 15% cut in labor time for custodians

    16) Stop the gutting of funding for fellowships and TAships and the re-instatement of TAs who lost their jobs due the budget cuts from this quarter

    17) Re-prioritizing funding so that essential student services i.e. the library get adequate funding to ensure regular library hours

    18) Censure Mark Yudof

    19) Un-arming UC police of all weapons including tasers

    20) No SCPD police on allowed on campus

    21) An apology from the regents and the state

    22) Creating a free and permanent organizing space on campus for student activists and organizers (first option : Kresge Town Hall)

    23) Due process for students:

    trial by peers
    constitutional rights for students tried under the UC Judicial System

    24) Making rent affordable for Family Student Housing, ensuring that the price does not exceed that of operating costs

    Long Term:

    1) No student fees

    2) Return to Master Plan

    3) Abolition of Regents positions

    4) Abolition of all student debts

    5) Tripling of funds from the State to public universities

    Any coherent message is lost in the mish-mash of ideals, and it turns into a bunch of idiots trying to be louder than the other.
     
  13. JProctor

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    There seems to be a universal assumption that change is necessary, or welcome. Maybe having all the financial and psychic benefits of an economic growth period yet concurrently enjoying the technological comforts of the economically mature present is too much to ask.

    This stuff goes in cycles. Big, thousand-year cycles and little, 30-year cycles. Right now, we have it a lot better than we think, just not as well as we want. For example, in the context of human history, how absurd is it to complain that you have to live with your parents?

    Here is a quote from an onion article that is insightful:

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theonion.com/articles/79-percent-of-americans-missing-the-point-entirely,640/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theonion.com/articles/79-per ... irely,640/</a>
     
  14. Frebis

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    Re: Occupy America

    I really wish I worked on wallstreet. I would go outside and spit on these fucks. You know why we have an illegal immegration problem? Because the world needs ditch diggers . These fucks would rather bitch about being poor because they are too stupid to have a decent job, instead of going out and doing what most would call a less than ideal job. At least now there is a good chance a man named paco will actually make my tacos.
     
  15. Crazy Wolf

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    Re: Occupy America

    There are many complaints. However, the main source of anger seems to be that the US government will spare no expense and act with great haste to bail out failing banks when the banks have a financial crisis, but will do fuck-all to help the American taxpayers when they, the individual taxpayers, have a financial crisis, in particular financial crises caused by those very same banks.

    And you're always very calm about the things that you dislike, right? Do you expect every word out of their mouths to be an articulate request for specific change? They're bitching about what they see as fucked up with the world. It doesn't need to be new for it to be something worth complaining about. If that was the case, would abolition or women's suffrage have ever happened? I mean, slavery and male dominance had been the status quo for millenia, they sure as hell weren't new revelations.
    Note: this is an observation about your "duh, it's not a new revelation" comment, not a direct comparison of corporate domination to slavery or the systematic oppression of half of a species.
    Yeah, returning money that you've taken is a really good thing to do, and should be a very high priority. As soon as you're making money, you should look into paying back what is owed.

    How much money have the banks payed back from the bailouts?
    Yeah. It's the colleges' fault. It couldn't be that the labor market makes it so that a college degree is practically mandatory for a chance at a living wage. It couldn't be that the labor pool for major companies is no longer national, but international.
    What jobs? Do you mean the ones across the ocean, for 1/10 the wages, with 1/100 of the safety? What hippy fucks? Do you mean these people?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    THOSE HIPPY FUCKS.

    Frebis: What benefits do you get with a ditch-digging job? $7.25 an hour's not too easy to live on. Assuming that's take-home pay, that's $14500 a year, 15,080 if you don't have a vacation. US Poverty level for a 2-person household? $14,710. How do you pay for medical expenses or accidents?
     
  16. Kampf Trinker

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    Re: Occupy America

    For one thing you don't necessarily need a college degree to have a decent job. It might make it easier, but I've met at least a dozen people who earn a good living and didn't go to any university. Secondly, maybe colleges should stop dumping absurd amounts into their sports programs and put more of that into academics or lower tuition rates. I can't find the exact numbers this second because I'm on lunch break, but if I remember right it approaches an atrocious 50% of funding at some schools. That's just disgusting.

    I can sympathize with people having a hard time due to the recession. I would probably be doing better than I am right now had it not happened, but in another way I'm glad because I would probably be working a soul crushing job instead of something I enjoy.

    For the record, I agree with most that these people aren't solving anything and this is typical of the entitlement problems of our generation. I'm SURE the people out there complaining have never made any mistakes and this is just a result of the government and rich banks fucking them in the ass. That's all it could be, right?

    Thanks mods for putting this thread up. Hopefully it won't turn into a mess.
     
  17. katokoch

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    Re: Occupy America

    There's trade/vocational schools aplenty, and if I'm not mistaken there's a shortage of skilled laborers out there. But, nope, a four year degree means you're too cool to be a machinist.
     
  18. Kubla Kahn

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    Re: Occupy America


    As quick perusal of new stories shows that a majority of the big banks that used TARP funds have paid back in full. Fanny and Freddie are the ones still hemorrhaging tax payer money.

    These sob stories are kind of spurious. They are way out of context and highlight only the most gut wrenching aspects of these peoples lives without questioning some of their stupid life choices. One posted earlier had a girl who's yearly pay was 56k/y but her end of the day amount was really low. Yet she payed 1000 dollars in rent every month. Does she live in California? There isn't any place she could find that is less than that? Too many variables to take a lot of these people at their word. My buddy from a straight blue collar background, dad works as an electrician for a cable company his mom's a waitress, bought his own house for 80k when he was 18 on part time restaurant work. He rented out three of his rooms up until a year or so ago which helped him pay his mortgage bills. He also took out school loans and finished a degree in criminal justice. He is a cop and knows how volatile his positions is and how little it pays relatively to other careers, think he makes between 30-40k. Yet he manages to pay off his student loans mortgage and car payments. He's the 99% who makes it work with what he's got and doesn't demand anything more than what he works for.

    Edit: I also subscribe to Adam Carolla's "cum on the tits" line of reasoning. If you can't afford to support yourself, cum on the tits. Nothing worsens the problem more than squirting out three or four dependents.
     
  19. Arms Akimbo

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    Re: Occupy America

    There is an Occupy Pittsburgh protest scheduled for this Saturday. They've yet to really any articulate any goals, only the usual litany of complaints. Actually, they have yet to list their own set of complaints, just opting for a copy of those listed by the OWS people. I actually think I am going to head down, walk around and interact with some people. I won't be going there to protest or to antagonize people that are, but rather to just see what some of them have to say, why they decided to head down, and what they hope to achieve on an individual level.

    Mainly, I wonder what the scope of their goals are. Nationally, Pittsburgh has very little influence over finance (PNC, Mellon and Federated are about it). If anything, form demands from Highmark (the largest health insurer in Pennsylvania and West Virginia) and UPMC (the areas largest healthcare provider as well as the county's largest single provider of employment) about working to provide people with affordable healthcare. Additionally, the area is right along the Marcellus Shale, one of the world's largest natural gas reservoirs. Maybe protest the increasing influence of the energy companies, possible effects on the environment, and long-term economic repercussions of their growing presence. But no, as far as I can tell, people are just organizing and going b/c they're unhappy.

    One of the organizers of Occupy Pittsburgh was described as having gone to or lead protests about tar sands, gas pipelines, and a dairy farm affected by gas drilling. Perhaps she is a very active, vocal person, but sometimes I wonder if people just enjoy protesting or thinking they're a part of a cause or like being in a counterculture.
     
  20. Kubla Kahn

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    Re: Occupy America


    WE'RE NOT GOING TO PROTEST!

    [​IMG]