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Monday Sober Thread: Derka Derka or Jerka Jerka?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrFrylock, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. Superfantastic

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    I'm of the opinion that this is a non-issue being made into an issue by people in power to further convinve their supporters that they deserve more power. That it's such big news right now means we all lose.

    Who fucking cares where they build it? Do the terrorists need to have a training facility near the thing they want destroyed in order to carry out their plan? Is there any evidence that the mosques that already existed near the towers played any part in their destruction? Didn't a signifigant number of non-terroristy Muslims die in the towers? What benefit does building it give the terrorists, aside from providing a place for the non-crazy members of their religion to shoot hoops?

    The other day Jon Stewart showed clips of Charelton Heston's great speech responding to people protesting the NRA's presence in Colorado after Columbine. He had a great line about how limiting the freedom of the normal people in a group, based on the actions of the craziest, hurts us all.

    KIMaster, I accept that you read more about the Muslim religion/associate with terrorists, but I'm struggling to imagine how they would prefer the mosque being built without controversy over The Great Satan stopping the peaceful people of their religion from congregating. Doesn't stopping them give the terrorists more conflict/fodder for their propaganda? Are they showing their recruits this story and saying, "look at the White Devil -- look how he completely allows our brothers to come together and worship Allah. He must be stopped at all costs."

    Are you saying they believe that building this mosque, versus the X number of pre-existing mosques in NYC, is going to scare the US into surrendering/falling...all because it's being built near ground zero? Like, they believe the conversion of an old Burlington Coat Factory into a community center is the catalyst to their ultimate victory? This is what they've been striving for? If that's the case, I just got a whole lot less concerned about Muslim Terrorists.

    Fucking REALLY, dude? To them, building a community center is equal to signing a treaty with HITLER? Wouldn't the US have to be in co-operative talks with Bin Laden for that comparison to work?

    And I know, I'm just a Westerner who can't possibly understand the mind-set of another human born in another part of the world, making it impossible for me to know what the extremists are thinking, but I always thought they wanted to kill us, and I don't see how building a gym helps them do that.
     
  2. audreymonroe

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    The most powerful cervix... in the world...

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    I hate this debate.

    When I first started hearing about it, all I heard was the phrase "a mosque at Ground Zero," and I admit that it made me feel a bit uncomfortable. But when I actually took the time to look into it myself and didn't just parrot what everyone else was yelling about, I discovered that it's actually being considered a couple blocks away in the hallowed grounds of an old Burlington Coat Factory. Now, I don't even know what the debate is. Why do people even care?

    It seems to me like the majority of people participating in this mess are those that live in Bumfuck Middle America and have never even been to New York City. This place is all about clashing ideologies being forced to live inches away from each other. The difference between the Haisidic Jew part of my neighborhood and the black thug part of my neighborhood and the white neo-hippie part of my neighborhood is literally a matter of a block or two. Yeah, it's not as politically charged, but that's just the reality of the city and people need to get over it.

    I think the real debate should be why people are allowed to protest the building of mosques in America at all. I can't believe it's become so accepted for people to spew these stupid, prejudiced opinions that a mosque automatically equals a terrorist breeding ground and must be stopped. It's just disgusting. Sure, a lot of people are not the biggest fans of the religion, but a lot of people hate Jews too, and if there was anything near this amount of drama over building a synagogue you know it would not be okay.
     
  3. Misanthropic

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    As stated, the "mosque" won't actually be at ground zero. So what we really have here are folks getting bent out of shape about a community center a couple of blocks away. So let's take this another step down the pathway of logic - how far away from Ground Zero, exactly, would this have to be before it is acceptable? 3 blocks? 10? New Jersey? And who exactly is it that should be able to determine exactly how far away it needs to be?

    Other than reserving a portion of the Site itself for the memorial out of respect for the victims and their families, religion should play no part in any decisions regarding the development in this area.
     
  4. Superfantastic

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    If anyone missed The Last Psychiatrist's take:

     
  5. Aetius

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    I'm just worried that this mosque will be used to funnel classified American basketball information to terrorist training camps in the bumfuck desert. What if Muslims learn to charge hard to the paint? WHAT IF THEY TAKE IT TO THE HOLE?! WHAT THEN AMERICA?
     
  6. BL1Y

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    Forgive me if I don't allow the opinions of religious extremists to dictate my actions.
     
  7. kuhjäger

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    Now I have noticed the newest talking point amongst the right is that:

    "The Muslims don't allow churches to be built in their countries, and non-Muslims aren't allowed in Mecca."

    So farking what. That is what makes America great; all the freedoms that we have. We aren't Saudi Arabia. We have freedoms to build whatever place of worship we want. Not letting them build the mosque/community ce would make us just as bad as them.he right loves to talk about how "freedom isn't free". It isn't because people have to fight for their freedoms from oppression. Guess who is doing the oppressing this time around. The "freedom isn't free" crowd.

    Also, something I have been pondering.

    How many churches of any denomination have been built near the OKC bombing site since that day?
    Several I imagine. Where was the outrage over those? McVeigh was a Christian. Sure, he wasn't specifically acting in the name of his religion, but in a misguided political ideology that stemmed from his involvement in separatist groups that were heavily influenced by their christian beliefs, and his belief in the need for atonement for Waco.

    It was the same for 9/11 terrorists. They were Muslim, sure. But their attack was clearly based on a political ideology, (attacking finance centers and a military target) that stemmed from their political perception of the US's actions in the middle east due to the politicization of them and their religion, and our support of Israel and having military bases in Saudi Arabia.

    I see little difference in the motives of either McVeigh or the 9-11 terrorists. They were both motivated by politics twisted by their religion.

    Therefore I think that we should protest the building of any churches near the OKC bombing site.
     
  8. ssycko

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    Before the inevitable "it's the same as building a Japanese cultural center down the road from Pearl Harbor."

    Either way, this debate is fucking stupid, and the fact that anyone here is arguing about it just makes this board look absolutely retarded.
     
  9. Kubla Kahn

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    ...But, one/forth of Americans are retarded.
     
  10. ssycko

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    [​IMG]

    What's very obvious right now is that you're missing the point that THERE IS NO DEBATE HERE. A Muslim COMMUNITY CENTER that is ALREADY BEING USED AS A PLACE OF WORSHIP THAT NOBODY CARED ABOUT is being renovated so that it is no longer a coat factory. Not to mention, it is BLOCKS AWAY FROM GROUND ZERO. You know what makes this country great? The fact that these Muslims (who make up a significant portion of the population in that area) can make a community center wherever they want.

    Isn't the M.O. of this board that we keep the retards out?
     
  11. Frebis

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    Please, Solaris is still allowed to post here, as is the idiot that dropped 26 hits of acid to get himself a cool lightening bolt on his hat. You recently discovered the caps lock key, and no one is running you out of town.
     
  12. RCGT

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    I think this says what I have to say, and I have to agree with the people wondering why we're even talking about this like it matters.
     
  13. jrussellmikkelsen

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    Any time I do anything I try to ask myself, "What would an extremist do?" And then I do the opposite.

    It's made a major impact on my life:

    -I never wear hats, or always do.
    -I never wipe my feet, or wear shoes, except when entering a sacred place.
    -I always pray to the east, or I don't pray at all, or I do pray but don't mean it.
    -I always work on Sundays, and Fridays, and Saturdays. But don't lift a finger any other day.
    -I eat as much as possible during holidays, or as little as possible.
    -I stay as open-minded as possible to all religions, and I despise and condemn them all.
    -I vow to never commit suicide for any cause, and I've planed to kill myself for several causes.

    Pretty much my life is full of chaos. But I highly recommend it to everyone, or no one.
     
  14. JoeCanada

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    I know, what is this, the #4 Justin Bieber fansite?
     
  15. KIMaster

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    Normally, government policy shouldn't give enthusiasm and hope to the enemy, while demoralizing one's own citizens.

    Now, you may believe considerations of equality and liberty outweigh that, but let's be clear on the results.

    By the way, I discussed this with Superfanatic via PM, but what's the difference between a mosque and a "Muslim community center"? Hell, when I was growing up, we called the local synagogue the "Jewish community center".

    Is this like calling a secretary an "executive assistant"?
     
  16. Beefy Phil

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    Point 1: If you don't live in this city, your opinion about the mosque doesn't count.

    Point 2: If you live in this city, your opinion about the mosque doesn't count.

    All this should, could and would shit doesn't mean jack shit, and these passionate televised tirades by either side are fucking embarrassing. Really, truly embarrassing. Oh, it hurts your feelings that they're building a community center? Blow me. You don't like all this hatefulness? Fuck off. The fact of the matter is that they can and will build their center, because it's legal and because we're in the middle of a recession. Even those asshole Staten Island union construction workers who swear they won't work on the project will tuck their balls back, bow their heads and stick their hands out when the contracts are signed because all the misguided, bigoted passion in the world doesn't feed their worthless fucking children during the worst construction slump in the last three decades. The builders know it, the unions know it, and the politicians definitely know it. They just have to figure out how to spin it in their favor. Cui bono? They fucking bono.

    This is about money, people. And elections. Which are ultimately about money. Everyone who lets this bullshit upset them in any way is being played. Period.
     
  17. ssycko

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    A mosque is more or less the equivalent to a Catholic Church. The community center, from what I've read, is basically a YMCA with attached prayer spaces.

    This news report/ the comments attached are seriously frightening.

    Pfft, caps lock is for amateurs. Shift key is where it's AT.
     
  18. Denver

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    Actually Harry Coolahan stated how at least some radical Muslims look at it: they are rejoicing the fact that there is debate about a mosque. You then criticized him for how he presented "evidence" but as far as I can see, his evidence is better than yours. You make your assertions out to be fact with little backing it besides "I know I guy and I read books." Clearly an expert on radical Muslim thought if there ever was one.

    "If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda: that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it" (from TIME). Your idea that allowing the mosque will empower al-Qaeda is the exact opposite of the truth, which is that quashing it will fit perfectly with their narrative.

    This is where I really think you've got it backwards. What's demoralizing to rational citizens is their liberties being trampled on in favor of Islamophobia. The only people who I think even have the slightest right to feel demoralized about this are 9/11 families, but even then, it's been almost 9 years. Why should a mosque being built blocks away at all affect someone emotionally unless they literally hate all Muslims because of 9/11?

    Also, what gives enthusiasm and hope to the enemy isn't building a mosque in downtown NYC (spoiler alert: there's already mosques there), it's the government suppressing Muslims' right to worship.
     
  19. Crown Royal

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    Disclaimer: Personal opinion only, so keep your e-stud attitudes in check.

    Let them build the place. As ignorant and uncompromising as I find religion to be, this place would have been built whether 9/11 happened or not. Why? Go down to the area and see how many Muslims live, work and dwell in the area or New York City in general. Finding a Muslim in NYC is easier than finding an Asian in a Niagara Falls casino. There's 1.2 billion of them all over the world, and they too need a place to go and pray/needlessly waist their time. Nobody's thumbing noses or going "nah-nah-nah nah nah we're building on your sacred ground". The bleeding hearts and the Jesus freak retards are not going to see eye to eye on this ever and it's THEM that's stirring up this unnecessary hornet's nest.

    Muslims's aren't terrotists. Terrorists are terrorists.
     
  20. MoreCowbell

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    This.



    Modern pundits have become remarkably good at cleverly misleading phrasing. Death Panels, Welfare Queens, Blood for Oil, etc. These phrases manage to sound vaguely right, while at the same time being sneakily misleading. The right seems to being better at this lately, although that hasn't always been the case. Not because they're evil; they just come up with very, very catchy phrases.


    "Ground Zero Mosque" is in that same tradition, seeing as it is neither a mosque nor is it at Ground Zero. Is everything around Ground Zero a "Ground Zero _______"? Ground Zero Starbucks? Ground Zero McDonald's? Ground Zero Jiffy Lube? Exactly how far does this halo area extend? Could they build the mosque 5 blocks away? 10? 50? Is New York City now going to be known as "Ground Zero City"?




    The man building this place has lived in the United States for 30 years, wrote a book about "the need for Islam to coexist peacefully with all other religions," and has worked with the Bush Administration on improving the perception of the United States amongst Muslims.

    Real radical bent on blowing up shit for jihad, this guy.