I will only post once more and say you and your various situations are unique. I'm pretty sure most members don't/didn't have Grandpa's that owned planes, much less flew them at such a young age. You see with different eyes than many. And one more thing, if the guy hadn't put himself in the situation in the first place he wouldn't be where he is now, media and "outcry" or not.
Just because nothing bad happened does not make it safe or acceptable. If the police pull over a drunk driver who hasnt hit anyone should they let him go? No, they arrest him because he MIGHT kill someone. I acknowledge that the child was supervised and not running amuck on the radio but thats not the point. The point is it was illegal, irresponsible and unsafe and thats why he should be fired, not because of public outcry. The vast majority of the time the best thing that can happen in my line of work is I don't go to jail. I don't get paid by the plane and I don't earn extra money if I do a really good job. If an airplane catches fire and through my control I save it and its passengers it's all part of my job. What I'm trying to say is theres rarely an upside to my job. Why anyone in their right mind would want to throw down more mines for themself to avoid is beyond me. I'm not looking for ways to handicap myself on the mic.
Geez. Can't we just call them airplanes? Focus: I hadn't really formed a full opinion about this until the ATC guy came in. At first I didn't fully realize the implications of putting a kid on the intercom - that it's basically asking a pilot to trust his life and the lives of his passengers to a 10-year-old. I think that kind of risk trumps any kind of homespun "kids are more capable than you think, just listen to what I did when I was 5" anecdote. That said, I nevertheless find the media's hysterics over the situation distasteful. While I guess I basically agree with their take on the situation, I still don't think this belongs in the headlines. I think in general news is meant to cover what did happen, not the off-chance of what horrible things could have happened. Or maybe it's just because their whole "This is so horrible, people could have died!!" shtick seems so insincere to me, that now even when it's somewhat justified it still creates an almost Pavlovian "shut the fuck up" response in me.
I've thought you were retarded before and this post confirms it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft Even the god damn air traffic controller from the board told you how dangerous it is. I fly 2-4 times a week, every week for work. In the past year I've thought I was going to die twice. Once we were almost on the ground when another plane began taking off. Thank god our pilot was paying attention. Our plane basically began going straight up at full thrust. No one knew what in the fuck happened. It was explained to us after landing. I felt sick for the rest of the day. We were very close to squishing the other plane, killing all of us. YAY The other was a situation involviong turbulance. I guess I can't blame that on ATC or the pilot. It was like a roller coaster for a god 20 minutes. YAY Anyway, The idea that this kid was telling planes when to take off scares the living shit out of me, because I'm not retarded.
I agree with dcc. Why can't anyone just take it for what it is? NO ONE GOT KILLED OR INJURED. There were no immediate negative consequences of the allowance for the kid to give the orders. Yes, it's natural to distrust what a 10-year-old is telling you over the intercom if you're in a plane with dozens of passengers on it. The father, however, could not possibly have been stupid enough to let his kids say random things, in fact it explicitly states the instructions were fed by him to the "junior ATCs". And he'd be sure to correct any mistakes they might have made. Huge overreaction on everyone's part here. Although I understand his suspension just so the FAA can cover their ass.
Seriously? Do you understand the concept of odds? No one got killed or injured this particular time, that's true. It's also true that it increased the chances of something happening by ten fold (possibly much more). Go put a revolver next to your head with one round in it and pull the trigger. Chances are you will suffer no immediate negative consequences. This is not about the kid telling a pilot the wrong thing. That probably wouldn't happen. This is about the massive distraction that this guy and his kid caused for absolutely no benefit. Every pilot who heard a kid talking on the radio that day was thinking partly about the kid and not about his job. There's no reason to introduce random elements into a massively complex system that is organized down to the smallest detail (every nut, bolt, screw, and part on an airplane has its own paper trail) for the purpose of keeping people from dying, just to have a laugh.
Has anyone even considered the possibility that it was bring your fucking child to work day?! I'll put in my two cents, since I've flown in small, private planes dozens of times in several states with the pilot being my brother. He's been flying for probably 5 or 6 years now, and I've flown with him at least 2 or 3 times each of those years between Chicago, Wisconsin, and Florida, day and night using instruments, and in all sorts of weather conditions except the really bad ones. Being an ATC isn't easy, from what I gather, and you have to be able to think on the fly and know a fuck ton of aeronautical nonsensical jibber jabber which is key to their safety and coordination. That being said, telling planes where to go on the ground is a whole lot easier to do than telling them where to land. Since large airports have several atc's staffed all the time, it's harder to fuck up. The way my brother put it is when you're directing ground traffic, it's a lot like being a crossing guard. Keep your eyes peeled, and tell people when to walk, drive, or stop. That means in my opinion, this isn't a big deal. Not the smartest thing to do, but you can shove your cock-benefit analysis up your collective asses because let's be realistic: There is no way this kid could have fucked up unless he was retarded, and if he was, his damn dad wouldn't want to bring him to work anyways. While I enjoy most of your stuff, Frebis, linking to that wiki article doesn't prove any points. It's a lot like when they mention the shark attacks in Freakonomics: The media blows it out of proportion and people lose their shit and freak the fuck out, when in reality something like 65 people die a year of shark attacks...of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS that visit oceans each year. If you had actually read the article, many of the plane crashes have some if not all survivors, and a good chunk of the cases there aren't even crashes but hostile takeovers. What I didn't see was anything due to ATC error, at least in recent years. Also, let's not forget about the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people that fly each year. The odds of dying in a plane crash is something like 1 in 10 million flights. Much like shark attacks, due to the gruesomeness and rarity of the even, the media goes apeshit and blows the motherfucker out of proportion even though the chances of it happening are so slim that you're more likely to find a bear on a unicycle dropping a deuce in your living room. Hate/disagree all you want, but this is my opinion. edit: EDIT 2: Thanks to a certain some one on this board, I decided to calmly address this statistical error issue by pointing out that things like revolvers don't have memory, and much like dice, will always have a 1 in 6 (or whatever the total) chance in shooting the loaded chamber/rolling a 2, etc.
I feel the same way about the charge of attempted murder. What's the big deal man? It's not like anyone died!
Why? Everyone knows arguing over the internets always results in someone winning, and making their point, and changing the minds of others that had disagreed with them to begin with because it matters so much. Derp.
I don't want anyone who isn't a licensed air traffic controller to have any control over an aircraft I'm on. Ever. In any capacity. If it had been Bring Your 40 Year Old Brother to Work Day, I would have had the same reaction. There are enough things that can happen to an aircraft that aren't easily preventable. This isn't one of them. Why even tempt fate?
Hey, don't forget that you have to make sure and call each other names as well. THAT means you're serious and absolutely correct. On topic: I agree that we (especially in North America) tend to jump the gun on a lot of things, and blow them out of proportion, but I also believe that there is a certain amount of caution to be exercised. This is one of those situations. Is the media hyping it up…you bet. Was it a bad idea for the guy to do that? Yep…it sure was. This didn’t end UP being a big deal. I think that’s the difference. Since I’m not too terribly familiar with the minutia of air traffic controlling, I won’t say one way or the other whether this is huge or little. Others have already weighted in on that. I HIGHLY doubt the guy would let his kid do what he did if he believed there was even the chance of something going wrong. But…can you imagine the outcry if something DID go wrong? Can you imagine trying to defend this guy if two 737’s filled to the brim with jet fuel ran into each other and caught fire and killed everyone on board? Even if it had nothing to do with what the kid did? Can you imagine if anything bad happened at that airport that day, and someone got wind there was a kid in the ATC tower and he was on the radio? Some things are a little too critical to mess with. Air traffic around one of the busiest airports in the world is probably one of them.
How do you think that statistic got where it is?. Controllers and airline pilots get held to extremely high standards. Most accidents aren't caused by problems with the airplane, but because someone (usually the flight crew) is messing around or zoning out or whatever. A little fuckup will start a chain reaction that ends with someone trying to take off on an inactive runway with a bulldozer on it or letting the autopilot steer them towards a mountain. Yeah, 99% of the time its harmless, but if that last 1% kills a lot of people then why risk it?
Alt-Focus To make a big deal out of this or even put it into news is just plain retarded. This is NOTHING, yet it is front-lining ahead of Haiti and Chile for the past for days. Maybe the fear mongers should be turning towards more important things than fathers having a little fun (and nothing more) with their kids. Fuck you Today Show and Fox News. Fuck you to hell.
Just for clarification, when you almost died in that first incident did you later find out a ten-year-old was behind the console at air traffic control? If not, then I don't see your point. I already said that flying is (somewhat) dangerous and that ATC is a difficult job requiring an extraordinary attention to detail. At the end of the day, though, shit sometimes happens. I've been on three flights I thought were going to crash. This doesn't mean I think the guy on the ground should be fired for my bad experience. And it's nice that you acknowledge that turbulence is not the fault of the AT controller or the pilot. Further proof that you're not retarded.
You do realize that his father was right in his ear telling him exactly what to say right?? You also heard the audio with every pilot laughing and understanding the command perfectly correct?? I'm not saying it was smart but this type of crap is not newsworthy. You call Dcc001 retarded but you source a personal experience about how you thought you almost crashed? Was it because there was a child giving air traffic control instructions?? I'm all for discussion but I'm not sure where your point is. I'm guessing your saying you think air travel is dangerous enough without having children in the tower? That may have worked better than calling someone retarded and a wikipedia article about crashes.
Well, there is a precedent; sort of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593 Do you think after that they made a rule or something? There were already regulations in place, as I'm hoping but not sure that there are for the ATC's. Did the media blow this out of proportion? I think so. If a video of Obama in the oval office with an intern and a drippy Cuban had surfaced? We would have never heard anything about this.
I think what a lot of you are looking for (or overlooking, as the case may be) is called Outcome Bias. Just because something bad didn't end up happening, doesn't mean it was a good decision to make at all. Drunk driving, as someone mentioned earlier, is a good example. Just because someone drove drunk and didn't hurt anything doesn't mean it was a good decision. (Although I don't think this particular instance is as big of a problem as some are making it out to be.) The real question is, does this kid like gladiator movies?