There is a move afoot to have longtime roommates Bert and Ernie get married to each other. They have certainly been cohabitating longer than most married couples, and so I think that they would have worked out any major issues by now. Might as well tie the knot? There are cogent arguments on both sides of the debate. The most compelling argument for me is that, as someone else pointed out in an article I read earlier, Sesame Street has always dealt with issues of the world through human characters, whereas the Muppets are primarily there for children to identify with and represent a source of constancy. FOCUS: Should Bert and Ernie tie the knot? ALT FOCUS: What issues are too sensitive to bring up for the youngest kids? What's the appropriate age for them to learn about those issues? RULES: No politics. No threadshitting. This is not a debate over gay marriage itself, it's a debate about when and how to introduce the subject (and similar) to children.
It depends on the child, of course, their level of curiosity, intelligence, maturity, etc. But as a general rule, in my opinion? When they start asking questions. Set that as a low level, and say, 10 as the upper level. Because there is still the argument that you want to in some way control or at least influence the stream of information getting to your child. You wait too long, and they'll have the wrong ideas about a lot of shit based on playground rumor, but at the same time you don't want to sit them down and say, 'Hey Timmy, I know you're five, but let me tell you all about homosexuality.'
I don't see the need to introduce what, in a roundabout way, will be a talk regarding sexuality to children that are of such a young age. Let kids be kids. As the article, and people in the comments have pointed out, they are good friends who live together. Leave well enough alone, there are much better platforms from which to fight this particular fight.
I don't think kids will be kids when parents have to answer the question, "Why is Jimmy's daddy kissing his good friend." Calling them good friends makes it tough to answer every succeeding question. And kids are nothing if not brilliant at endless strings of "Why ...?"
Definite no, for the simple reason that the entire point of Bert and Ernie is to illustrate platonic friendship and any sexual overtones have just been superimposed on the relationship by bored adults.
Focus: No they should not. Let children be children and keep sexual stuff out of it altogether. Children are more likely to question why Bert and Ernie are getting married than why Miss Piggy and Kermit get married. Why? I dont know, maybe its inherent in our species for mating purposes, even before sexuality and sexual identity take hold, that male and female go together. What purpose does it actually serve to throw it at them and confuse them? It just seems a little silly and this groups intention seems more for the sake of political correctness than anything else. Yes, theres an HIV positive muppet on Sesame Street in South Africa. However its a little different when its a disease that the children directly suffer from which they may not understand and its a major health crisis in Africa. If a child comes home and asks why his friend has two daddys or two mommys, then I dont think theres a definitive age when this should be discussed. Its purely at the parents discretion when they should have that conversation with their child. For me personally, Id try to wrap it into the larger discussion about sex when the time comes at 10 or 11.
I notice that very few of the people who object to the sexualization of bert and ernie have ever voiced their concerns over Miss Piggy and Kermit the Frog's dysfunctional and borderline domestic violence prone relationship. I'm also not sure that I understand how exactly marriage equates to sexualization in a children's puppet show - do people think that after the wedding vows and the kiss, Ernie will flop out his big felt puppet cock for Ernie to suck on? Demonstrating that the characters love each other in a way that warrants honoring with commitment, ceremony and recognition isn't the same as having an all male muppet gangbang afterschool special. If you look into the history of Sesame street, in the late 80's there was a long running arc where one of the human characters (maria) got pregnant and married luis. Based around the shows writers finding that children had very little understanding of the topic of pregnancy and marriage and that there was no significant children's literature about the topic. Studies after the episodes aired showed a strong rise in children's understanding and acceptance of these topics because sesame street is so pervasive. Not a single fucking person made a peep about sexualizing or politicizing children in regards to that story arc. I think Bert and Ernie's marriage won't happen. The sesame street writers have always insisted that Bert and Ernie aren't homosexual, The count isn't a pimp, Oscar isn't a homeless guy and Snuffalupagus isn't a smack addict and Cookie Monster's cookies aren't laced with anything. And yet if you've been to a rough neighbourhood and you imagine the residents who live there recast as children's puppets... But acknowledging that the characters are gay breaches that wall of denial in a way that opens the flood gates for questioning the character of the cast and if it's really appropriate to have a 7' pigeon, a pimp, a homeless guy, a couple of queers, a smack addict, a stoner with the munchies and little red furry thing that's clearly pilling off his fucking head, living in a ghetto, as role models for children. I think that kids won't give a fuck either way. Adults with agendas are the only people who care. Bert and Ernie having a marriage would be nice, and could be done without any kind of sexualization - just like a male and female character getting married wouldn't have any sexualization. But it probably won't happen. A couple of non-core, non-puppet characters might have a same gender story arc at some point - and that'll be nice. But that's as far as it'll go.
My fiancee and I have had this conversation before as it pertains to our daughter(not about Bert and Ernie, but gay marriage and gays in general). She's only 7 months old so we don't have to worry about this for a while, though. While neither of us care if we find out she is gay later in life, we also don't want to say/do anything that will influence her one way or the other. I assume that when she starts asking questions about it(presumably in her teens), we'll(try to) explain that some people have a different lifestyle than others, and there isn't anything particularly wrong with any of them. Focus: I find the thought of Bert and Ernie tying the knot to be hysterical. Fuckit, why not?
In any kind of popular children's literature, where is the possibility of a same gender couple being a couple raised? Of course they question one and not the other - kids are well educated about typical hetero gendered relationships, and not at all about same gendered ones. And do we really think it's a good thing that kids would question two men who love each other and have a deep and profound friendship spanning decades more than they would a violent diva manipulating her on again, off again partner into marriage through a wedding masked as a joke? (For those who didn't obsessively love the muppets, Miss Piggy made serious attempts to 'trick' Kermit into marrying her, including having a third party trick him into signing the marriage license, and hiring a real minister to officiate what Kermit thought was a fake marriage for a comedy skit, in The Muppets take Manhattan, that was a fucked up relationship.) Reality is that I really don't think Kids will give a fuck either way. They might understand homosexual marriage a bit better after the story line, and it might make school a fuckload easier for some gay kids when they first start to realize that while they are different from some of the other kids, that isn't necessarily a bad thing - but it won't make any real difference long run compared to school based acceptance and equality programs.
The whole point of that show is to showcase diversity without being overt about it. They show everyone living together harmoniously. Purple, red, yellow, dirty, poor, mutated Chernobyl Bird, cookie slut all getting along. The writers don't draw any attention to the fact that the count is a purple vampire with "Rain Man" Autism, that a giant chicken talks, that Elmo is a poof (nobody noticed he's the best candidate for outing?), and that Burt sure as fuck is going to die of jaundice. Instead they allow the proclivities and eccentricities of the characters to define them. It just... is. Nobody bats an eye, nobody cares who lives with who or why. All they need now is a bald, Australian muppet in a face mask that leads a naked woman he calls "Toilet" around on a leash. But doesn't that sound wonderful? The world exists as it does and nobody gives a fuck. Do you remember how you found out about gays? I sure as hell don't. They're even more ubiquitous in society now than 20 years ago. Kids will pick it up just like they see mommy and daddy kissing, or they know cartoons start at 6 am on Saturday. It just fucking is. This is their world as they experience it. And if by some odd chance they can't figure it out, what kid do you know of that doesn't ask a million questions? Why worry about it when they'll bring it to you in the same breath as why they can't have a puppy. I bet it'll be a non-issue 5 minutes after you tell them anyway. There are better things to worry about than gay people on TV, let alone gay puppets. Like Super Aids.
Since Sesame Street has always been so good about introducing big topics like this to children, I think it's important that they address gay marriage at some point, but I agree that it shouldn't be with Bert and Ernie getting married. Part of the reason is it would bother me from a writing perspective. I think they're better than to spring the twist (or "twist" depending on how you've been viewing it) that Bert and Ernie have been gay this whole time by them getting married all of a sudden. Besides living together, they haven't "acted gay" up until this point, and to me it feels like it would cheapen the subject by taking the easy way out. Also, I like that they have such a famous example of a close male friendship. There's already enough shit equating male friendships with being gay, so I think it's just as important to show boys that they can have that close relationship with another boy without them feeling emasculated about it which, let's face it, is a lot of guys' opinion about being gay. I think Bert and Ernie have always been "just friends," and I think people read way too much into it/are being a bit presumptuous when they start talking about how Sesame Street is in denial of their homosexuality. That being said, I'm kind of surprised they haven't had some kind of storyline about being gay, especially when the heterosexual Kermit/Ms. Piggy relationship is one of the longest running stories. (And Scootah's right, that's not exactly a healthy relationship either. Julie Klausner has a hilarious essay blaming their relationship for the dysfunctional dating of our generation.) Pulling from what IWantSomeJuice and Scootah said, I think it would best be done with either the actors, or with one of the muppets having two moms or dads and the other muppets finding out about it. The latter is probably how a lot of kids who are watching it now are going to find out about it anyway.
I have no problem with the concept of introducing gay topics to children. They're going to see it out there in the street or on television at some stage because it's part of the world. Just the same as watching the effects of violence, sex and a ton of other things overprotective parents try and shield their children from. I don't think it should be forced down their throats, but it shouldn't be hidden either. That way it can form part of their normal learning experience and explained gradually in ways they'll understand for their level. All that being said; Bert and Ernie? Fuck no. Fuck off and leave them alone. That I know of, their exact relationship has never been explained. Maybe they're brothers? It could possibly be surmised that they're based on Felix and Oscar from the Odd Couple. And, from my memory of that show at least one of them was definitely not gay and they lived together because of the economical cost of living in the city - not because they were gagging each other nightly. Don't go casting around for candidates because there's some perceived urgent notion that this topic has to be put on the show. I'm not sure it even does have to. Any requirement that all broadcast shows need to show representation from every demographic is bullshit in my opinion. If there's impetus to do this, introduce new characters. That would be less confusing. And, also, when the inevitable question gets asked that, "If X and Y are gay, then why aren't Bert and Ernie? They live together too", then it can be answered (as it should) with, "Just because two men live together, it doesn't mean they're gay." That should help dispel some stereotypes.
Maybe it's inherent in our species for mating purposes? Or maybe 100% of the married people the child knows are a hetero couple, since that's the law in most parts of the world. Maybe every ad they see on TV is for Barbie and Ken, or whoever the new generation of cough role models are. Seriously, one day, tape a kids program and actually look at the ads for kids. Boys get ads for trucks and tool sets, girls get ads for Princess Barbie and her dream home, with husband accessory. In 2011. What purpose does it serve to throw it at them and confuse them? Well, if the kid watching turns out to be gay, maybe knowing that a familiar character (who is accepted by all the other characters) is gay will lessen his confusion. Maybe kids won't grow up being such utter pricks to kids who have come out, or been outed, if they view them as normal rather than freaks. (Me included: I was a huuuge dick to the one openly bi kid we had in our class. Sorry Chad.) I'm extremely conflicted about this whole topic. On the one hand, it's incredibly dangerous to take control of what kids learn away from parents, and politically its roughly as popular as Paris Hilton at a Hilton christmas. However, I'm still a bit shocked that two of my good friends told me, in Uni, that they wouldn't be friends with a gay person because that wasn't how people should be. (Both had heavily religious upbringings, and they genuinely believed gay people had been corrupted by Satan). I think that on balance, any thing which exposes kids to the idea that 'normal' is a bullshit social construct largely intended to keep control of a populace is a good thing. All that said: stop sitting your kids in front of Sesame Street and read a book.
The incredibly dangerous part is that a single TV show featuring felt puppets depicting two adult males having a loving relationship where there's not even an implication of sex, could be considered taking control of what kids learn away from parents. The mere fact that the first argument against two male muppets having a marriage is that it would sexualize children says to me that there are still a fuckload of people out there who don't understand homosexuality at all and would have been massively benefited by a muppets introduction to to homosexuality. I'm currently just imagining how awesome it would be if Statler and Waldorf came out, bitched out the network and the studio for forcing them into the closet for so many years and pushed to see how far the muppets could really take a mariage of two puppets. It wouldn't have nearly the same impact as Sesame St - but it'd be a lot funnier.
This is a good point. I am reminded of something Dan Savage said about coming out to his parents, along the lines of I think he's probably right, although I might make an exception for fathers meeting the boyfriends of their teenaged daughters. I also think the idea that children aren't sexualised is laughable and the product of decades of well-meaning propaganda rather than reality, but that's a different argument all together.
Hasnt there been a gay childrens character already? Spoiler She has her girlfriend call her "sir" for Christs sake.
Focus: Bert and Ernie should not get married because they are not gay. CTW has always maintained that they are not gay, so if they get married it sends the message that you can choose your sexuality - which is not possible. If they want to have a gay marriage on Sesame Street, they should introduce two new gay characters and have them get married.