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MGTOW

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by downndirty, Oct 19, 2016.

  1. downndirty

    downndirty
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  2. Juice

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    Well if you want to talk about it, start off with an actual critique of it.

    It stinks of Red Pill-type bullshit. I have a friend that buys into this kind of stuff pretty heavily. Shockingly, he hasnt had any successful relationships. I've never understood what the 'perfect world' scenario looks like for these guys. Do they expect to live in a society where you get to cosplay as Ralph Kramden and their wife is at their beck and call? I agree that feminism (as with any movement), can at times be toxic and counter-productive, and the wage gap is largely a myth. However, the strides that women have made are important for our forward progress as a society and cultural growth. Grasping on to anachronistic norms and values is absurd. Hating women, or anyone for that matter, does nothing but make you a miserable person.
     
  3. trojanstf

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    When I have more time I'll respond more, but the article you linked as best I can tell just says the pay gap is a myth a bunch of times and then doesn't actually provide a single fact. Just some hypotheticals of "doesn't look like they took this into account" but doesn't identify how that changes the numbers. Don't mean to push this off topic if I am.
     
  4. Juice

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    Youre right - I actually meant to link a different one. Ill replace my link a little later today. But we can carry that discussion over to the Serious Thread.
     
  5. toytoy88

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    That's exactly what it is. It's a bunch of anti-social, basement dwellers who have never learned how to communicate face to face with society, complaining that girls think they're weird and it certainly can't be their own fault.

    It's like that fuck up in California a few years ago who went on a shooting rampage because he didn't have a girlfriend. They come up with every bullshit reason they can why it's someone else's fault they're outcasts...it has nothing to do with the fact that they spend all their time on chans, watching anime, and playing video games while avoiding at all cost the actual world and learning how to interact with society.

    They're just another group in their own personal echo chamber trying to push the reason for their failure on the rest of the world.
     
  6. downndirty

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    I don't do any of that shit, and I can see some value in what they say about stereotypical moron dudes in the media. The typical male is Tyler Burrell in Modern family: useless and neutered by his wife.

    I think at a high level it's about the same thing as feminism: not defining yourself by your relationship with the opposite sex. I also see this as a pendulum swing in the other direction from men still having the same 1950s expectations and women largely abandoning them.

    There is a whole culture around worshipping and encouraging women, and while I can't confess to personally giving a fuck about it, I can see how that would inspire this kind of negativity.
     
  7. Crown Royal

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    With every culture comes counter-culture. Feminism's third wave has been a largely vile and solipsistic demographic that whines about the current era, when women have quite honestly never had it better. So the Men Going Their Own Way shit came along and acted equally as stupid using largely smug instead of screaming and blue hair die.
     
  8. D26

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    Thanks, reading that article is the hardest I've laughed in months, because as I was reading, I was picturing one of my former students, an 18 year old kid I'll call "Carl."

    Carl never had a girlfriend and was always fairly quiet. Wore video game shirts, played games on his computer constantly, decent but not great grades (b's and c's), UNTIL we began discussing the women's rights movement of the 60s and 70s. Then he LOST HIS SHIT in class. Just shaking and fuming, and actually said out loud "rape isn't real, it's always just regretful women."

    When every woman in class literally laughed at him (he apparently had a history of statements like this and none of them took him seriously), he almost started crying, and I got lucky the bell rang before shit got ugly. I asked him to hang back a minute so we could talk, but he had to run so I asked him to come back after school. He has always liked me because I am a gamer and we played some of the same games (we had discussions about Dark Souls, for example).

    When we did talk, he said he'd never had a girlfriend, and never wanted one. He said women were all attracted to "assholes" and the typical friend-zoned bullshit. This kid was Ducky, but knew it and was sick of it, so he was lashing out at women. I just listened and didn't offer much advice, because quite frankly, that's what kids like this need more often than not.

    I asked him what he'd do when he got older and he said he was going to college for computer engineering and the only thing he knew for sure was he'd never get married. Ever. He said he wanted to be a virgin until he died. His distrust was very deep.

    I let his counselors and the administration know the kid put up more than a few red flags, but beside watching him closely and offering to talk, there wasn't much else I could do.

    A few days later another student of mine, a female student, came to me to fill me in on the story of Carl before I got to the school. She told me that Carl had asked her out his freshmen year, but she was already dating someone (a football player), and he apparently said "but that guy is an asshole and I'm a nice guy, you should dump him." He apparently proceeded to ask her out every day for two weeks until her boyfriend and some of his buddies threatened him. Apparently that was his turning point, and from that point forward he hated all women and guys who dated women.

    Point is, as I was reading, I kept hearing his voice saying all the same shit. Women hate men, men shouldn't be subservient to women, dating a woman would mean giving up control of his own life and he refuses to do that. Stuff like "when I'm successful and have women all over me, I'll tell them all to go away because I won't give up a dime of my hard earned money to pay for their dinner."

    I suspect these guys start early like Carl here, get shot down a bunch in high school, if they even ask a girl out at all, and this is their coping mechanism. It just screams of a petulant child saying "fine! I didn't want a girlfriend anyway!"
     
  9. Kampf Trinker

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    Do we need a buzzword and a movement for everything now? If you don't want to get married just don't get married. Why is it necessary to join a community to iron out the ideas of why you aren't getting married that you supposedly already decided?

    I didn't read that far into the site. If they joined this because of feminism it's a pointless reason anyway. A lot of women don't identify as feminists. Of the women that do, most I've met most don't actually fit into media/pop feminism where they think everything that exists oppresses them. The whole MGTOW because of feminism seems more like the female version of 'I'm not married because I can't find a man who wants more than a glorified maid.'
     
  10. Kubla Kahn

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    Ive heard about the Red Pill and this before but never really delved into it, the arguments and theories are just too fucking depressing for the most part. Im not going to hurl insults at the guys because that is in the long run counter productive. A while back we had a thread on the toughest part about being male and a number of guys including myself mentioned rejection from women. I think a lot of the guys in with MGTOW or Red Pill thinking are guys that never gained the ability to deal with the harsh pains of rejection so they cocooned themselves off and use this type of thinking and reasoning to rationalize their avoidence behavior. It can manifiest itself terribly in the online trolling/hate culture we see. I think stepping up more mandatory counciling in grade school and high school to destigmatize getting help for social issues/mental health would be a good start.

    The one area I tend to agree with are the divorce/family courts issue. It made sense when our culture revolved around men in the workforce women taking care of the home. Leaving a woman with kids and destitute needed a stiff penalty so guys didn't bounce. We've changed our cultural roles enough that there at least be some sort of court parity given to guys on a case by case basis.
     
  11. Superfantastic

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    I immediately distrust anyone who strongly identifies themselves as...pretty much anything beyond human. Not that saying you are a race/nationality/orientation is inherently bad, but if you are so ardent with your identity that you start any reasonable discussion of an issue with, "As a (blank)...", my eyes can't help but glaze over with boredom. These guys (I refuse to use that acronym) are another manifestation.

    My biggest beef with this behavior is that, by identifying so strongly with their group, they seem unable to criticize it in any way. I could barely skim that article, but I would bet those guys probably have a valid point somewhere (family courts, most likely), yet it's completely dwarfed by the "I am THIS and that makes me right and you WRONG" attitude. The concept of some gray area on even part of an issue seems more and more foreign to many people. All or nothing, zero sum game, and all that. In reality, minus the obvious exceptions, every group is a little bit wrong.

    That said, these men's rights activists have made me ponder things I haven't before, specifically the difficulty of being a man. I realize that sounds funny, and I'll always be convinced that, on the whole, it's clearly easier being male. But discounting half the population's experience reeks of the all or nothing attitude. The most extreme example is suicide -- dudes kill themselves a fucking lot more than women, and it's hardly talked about, especially compared to women's issues (not saying it should take precedence, but it shouldn't be crickets, either).

    There's also the less extreme, everyday difficulty of being a dude. I know, I know -- hilarious, right? But think about being wanted. For girls, in general, the problem is being too wanted -- girls get harassed, often to the point of violence, and that's fucked. But not being wanted fucks with guys in a different way, especially young guys. For any girl reading this, think of how much effort you don't put into getting laid when you want. We all have physical desires, but satisfying our most primal one is night-and-day different for each gender. For a woman, if it's all she wants, her own standards are the deciding factor. For a typical guy, it's the standards of any girl he meets, and most are understandably picky, because they can be. The guys in that article are most likely douchebags in their own way, but if you discount outright the frustration of being incredibly horny and never getting laid, you're being less than empathetic.

    But it's more than just fucking. I dated a girl for most of last year and it was easily the happiest I've been in five years at least. Then she dumped me. A female friend dumped her boyfriend around the same time, and rented my spare room from March until last month. It took her less than two months to find a guy, whom she's now moving in with, and she got laid twice in those two months. Meanwhile, this year has been one of driest spells I've had, sex-wise, and despite going on dates whenever I can, nothing has stuck. I reminisce and fantasize more about cuddling and being affectionate with my ex than I do about our fucking, and we had some great fucking.

    Yes, that's just a single anecdote. My point is that there's a psychological toll that isn't obvious, but it's just as real as a woman being scared for her safety. I'm not saying any of this is exclusive to either sex, or applies to each individual, but I do think that feeling unwanted and pointless is much more common, and dangerous, for men.
     
  12. Durbanite

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    I never knew there was a word for this, but MGTOW seems to cover me pretty well. The only way I differ is that I don't hate women - I just don't want a relationship with anyone, so I don't see the point in wasting their time and mine as I'd simply rather spend my time with my PC games as I find them more enjoyable. I've just been let down or been back-stabbed too many times (by both guy friends and women) that I simply feel no need to build any relationships when I know that I will just be waiting for them to crumble away into dust.

    EDIT: Superfantastic made a good point about some guys feeling unwanted - I always have been, my whole life, by both other guys as a friend (I was always the running joke - if someone was having a shitty day, I'd get the brunt of it in one way or another) and women. The difference now is that I no longer care and thus make no effort. Why waste time when there are so.many.games out there, not to mention TV shows and Youtube...

    I am quite happy by myself, thanks.
     
    #12 Durbanite, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  13. CanisDirus

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    Because people need to feel like they're a part of something, even when it is the most retarded crap ever. As far as I think, it's mostly homely-looking guys with sour misanthropic personalities that typify the most vocal Men Going Their Own Way folks. If you don't want to get married, don't get married but don't then rush forward like you made some amazing discovery or that you experienced enough to make an informed decision when you have barely even interacted with the opposite sex. The classic "Nice Guy Syndrome" and Red Pill at work together; "I don't suck and have to improve myself, the system is rigged [Red Pill] and I am a nice guy, not a bitter vindictive fuck! [Nice Guy Syndrome]". Smash them together and you have the MGTOW mindset.
     
    #13 CanisDirus, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  14. Kampf Trinker

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    BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh man, I take back what I said about not reading into this, so worth the entertainment value. If anyone wants to see the masculinists championing this idea skip to 1:15 of that video. I can't decide if I'm appalled these people exist, or if it's the greatest thing ever.
     
  15. Kampf Trinker

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    I just love how obvious it is that he can't get a date while holding up a sign about women's SEXUAL FAILURE.

    No matter what you are you can special, kids. Snowflakes falling out of every dark recess of the internet.
     
  16. Misanthropic

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    I don't think they're that stereotypical (e,g, anime, playing video games, etc.), but I agree with everything else you said. They are a bunch of whining men who haven't gotten what they want, and of course its everyone else's fault. Multiply that by the wonder of internet communities, and voila.
     
  17. downndirty

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    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/11/19/men-are-not-monsters.html

    Just to play devil's advocate here...there seems to be a significant amount of this shit floating around.

    I am all for equality, but that's what it means: equal. Shit like this is villification and it's fucked up....and it's happening more frequently. There are some situations that it's simply not acceptable to be a man and in a large sense it's making us all worse off. In other words, I should be able to approach and talk to a woman or child without someone assuming my intention is to fuck it. Normal people don't assume that, but those that do fuck it up for the rest of us.

    In the war between the sexes, everyone's a victim.

    I also don't prescribe to the notion that this is a bunch of unsatisfied, weak, spineless men as it is men who reject some of our own culture's bullshit with gender. You'll have all types.
     
  18. toytoy88

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    You know, the more I think about it, I could fit into this group. I have no desire to because I don't see myself as a victim or pissed off at the opposite gender. It's just that over the course of my life I've figured out that it's best for all involved if I, personally, am not in a relationship.

    I'm kind of an asshole and prefer to be left alone unless I'm feeling socialable. Which isn't very often. My job requires me to be socialable, which I find quite draining, but I'm a good actor. The last thing I want at the end of the day is to come home and have to talk with/deal with another person and their issues.

    I don't place the blame for my quirks on anyone else, it's all on me. I've been in plenty of LTR's and every single one felt suffocating to me. I'm sure every one of my exes would mention how aloof I was, even after years together.

    About 6 years ago I came to the conclusion that I'm happiest left to my own devices and it's not fair to anyone to be in a romantic relationship with me because we'll both be miserable.
     
  19. Juice

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    You're not wrong. My brother in law told me this story when his brother went to a parent/teacher conference. The teacher straight asked him, "Is her mother planning on coming?" Because they usually don't expect the fathers. As for the abuse thing, that's the most of out of whack. Women are more likely to abuse children than men.

    But in any event, most women and feminists aren't cancerous, third-wave hyper-feminists that push those anti-male narratives. Unfortunately, they still creep their way into some form of influence.
     
  20. Danger Boy

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    Wow.

    I'm 35 and single by choice. I've always had girlfriends off and on, but I really don't have the desire to "settle down" and have kids. During the last 5 years I've been so heavily involved in my career that if I had kids, they'd barely know me. While I enjoy the company of a women, I also enjoy lots of space and time to myself. I get out quite a bit, so I don't have to endure too many dry spells. By about the age of 25 I figured out that talking to and picking up women didn't require some secret formula, and they're a lot more like us than most men like to admit. Once that happened I was a lot happier and pretty much lost any resentment I had towards women. Someday I might decide I want a long term relationship, but for the moment I'm happy with my lifestyle.

    I have a friend that's a couple of years older than me who would jump on the MGTOW bandwagon pretty quick if he discovered it. He's a smart, funny, hard working guy, but he's an eccentric, so people don't quite know how to take him when they first meet him. The closest thing he's ever had to a girlfriend was a crazy middle aged fuck buddy. He's been using the same formula to pick up women for the last 15 years and it has about the same effectiveness as just walking up and slapping women on the back of the head. I've tried to be his wingman hundreds of times but he fucks it up to the point to where there's nothing I can do to fix it. I've told him over and over again that women are people too, just talk to them like you would anyone else, but he refuses to believe any of my advice. He just says that I'm lucky and that women are different where I live than where he lives (really?), and I don't understand his unique situation (that millions of other guys are in). When he's sober and he's not trying to get laid he actually is pretty decent at talking to women, but as soon as he gets some liquid courage and gets into his pursue mode he might as well just light himself on fire because it's easier to deal with. But if you ask him it's all the women's fault. They're all a bunch of stuck up bitches. They need to get over themselves. He gets more bitter every year, and I worry that he's gonna lose his shit someday.