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Marriage Without Monogamy

Discussion in 'All-Star Threads' started by hooker, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. M4A1

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    I tried to have and open relationship with an ex that I was with for 8 years. Didn't work out so well. If I am committed to someone, then I tend to not want to share. If its just casual, I automatically assume that you're sleeping with other people, because I usually am, until we have that talk and decide that we don't want to. It's not a territorial thing, its just that if I am going to focus that energy and intimacy into you, then I expect it in return. It's difficult enough to have a 1 on 1 relationship without bringing others into it.

    If it works for some people, then that's cool, I am not going to judge. It's just not for me.
     
  2. ssycko

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    No, they didn't. Sure, men are generally regarded as being more attractive at older ages than women are, but they aren't attracted to the "older man" just because he's physically attractive.

    [edit] I forgot about the focus. I'm totally content with being monogamous so that my girlfriend doesn't touch other guy's dicks. Girls, on the other hand... she can do anything with any girl whenever she wants ever. As long as I'm watching. With a camera.
     
  3. atavistic

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    Focus: not in an open relationship, nor have I ever seriously considered it. Even the porny male fantasy ones where your girlfriend/wife goes out and scores all sorts of random women for the two of you.

    I've never considered it because of the sentence quoted below:

    "Having one’s wife fucked is one thing; having her taken away from you, plus your children, is another, I find"

    Kingsley Amis wrote that going on 60 years ago now. If I were a more educated person I'm sure I could produce sentences with more or less the same content from thousands of years ago. Hell, it may even be in the bible. In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that human nature hasn't changed much, and people have been failing at open relationships for at least as long as they've been writing about them. I'm sure there are isolated cases where these relationships work in the long-term, but at a population level I think that stable open relationships are essentially non-existent.

    Since it doesn't sound like we've got many swingers in residence here, perhaps I can suggest an alternate focus: what is it that you people who're curious about open relationships want to get out of them? What could they really provide you that you'd be willing to risk the scorn of your peers, if not much, much more were everything to unravel? I'm not really that interested in answers like "random tail." Everyone knows that's the goal. I'm much more interested in why you want random tail.
     
  4. Spacesatan

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    I'm not in an open relationship, but I'm not opposed to it in the right circumstances. I'll try to formulate something cogent to express it, although that might be hard.

    Premises:
    1. Sex and love are different. I couldn't imagine a relationship without sex, but the fact that I can imagine sex without a relationship tells me that there isn't some sacred necessary connection between the two.
    2. When given the choice, I'd rather not make a decision to limit my future options and possible experiences. My general worldview is that there is a lot of shit you can do if you are willing to go outside of societal norms and structures, and those structures should not be the basis of your actions (see also: drugs).
    3. I'm not sexually jealous in the sense that I can't stand someone touching and pleasing my partner sexually. I've been with girls who have slept with tons of guys in the past. They should have the breadth of experiences that they are comfortable with and desire. However, I would feel jealousy if she cheated in a relationship that was decided to be monogamous - that sex with this guy means more than honesty to me.

    I like the freedom to sleep with people. In my future, I might be traveling a lot, away from my partner (I'm a musician). If she is cool with it, I would have sex with other women. If I love her, I don't think there would be a danger of me leaving her for someone else. But love doesn't make flirtation and attraction, and meeting new people, less fun.

    As far as her sleeping with other guys? I am alright with that, as long as she can be honest with me about it, doesn't have sex with my close friends, and I can trust her not to get too involved with other guys. Also, she would have to be the kind of girl that I could trust to not lead other guys on, who is able to tell them the way things are, and that those things aren't going to change.

    Ultimately, I feel that I am able to deal with what it brings, given the following:
    A. We already have a very strong connection. We would probably be exclusive for a while first, or be great friends for a long time etc.
    B. She is the kind of girl that I know can i)be honest about her feelings ii)is happy with her life and me - isn't secretly hoping for someone better to come along. That second point I feel applies to a lot of people in their early 20s. Always seeing every new guy as a possible Disney prince. That leads to iii)she CAN separate sex from love to some degree. and iv)she has enough experience to know that I am the right guy for her.
    C. She can trust the fact that when I say I am dedicated to her and will always place her before other women, that I actually mean it.

    All in all, it's not something I am going to require when I settle down permanently. I also would veto a significant other's suggestion of an open relationship (in fact, I have) if I feel that our relationship isn't of the right flavor for it to work, or think that she is using it as a way to shop around, or to appease me at her expense, or something like that.

    I'm working on a paper right now, so I apologize if this post is way too verbose, structured, and academic sounding.
     
  5. Allord

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    I don't know about you guys, but I want random tail as a matter of territoriality and economics. When I go to a bar I always make sure to bring a tungsten branding iron and layered tungsten aerogel/silica aerogel/gold thermos full of thermite with which to lay claim the random tails to be had.

    The more asses you thermolytically blast your name into, the more your name is worth, the more money you make selling each ass for slaughter, the more money you have to fuel your booze habit at your penthouse full of porn stars snorting ground up asbestos through lead pipes with a shot of mercury as a chaser.

    And then we drink the Kool Aid.
     
  6. shaydlip

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    Have you seen Mickey Rourke recently? And Demi Moore? Just sayin'
     
  7. Pinkcup

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    I'm assuming you are referring to what would happen if one partner, after getting married, decided to "drop the bomb" of wanting an open relationship to the other partner (who, for the sake of argument, will not ever want an open relationship)? The answer is: Communication. Lots of talking would happen. There would be honest discussion between both parties regarding expectations, monogamy, and WHY THE FUCK IT WASN'T BROUGHT UP BEFORE TAKING VOWS. If it wasn't discussed as a possibility prior to marriage, then it's unrealistic to expect the 'monogamous partner' to change their marital expectations afterwards--but it's always worth an open and clear discussion. And--as a side note--anyone who knew they wanted an open relationship to become a possibility during the engagement/dating phase but DIDN'T bring that up before marriage isn't self-aware/honest enough to make a success of it. Period.

    All productive roads are paved with good communication, my dear!

    Exactly! I really admire your ability to "veto" an open relationship if you sense the conditions aren't right. Sometimes, people think they want something when in fact it would only end up hurting or damaging them if they got it. See: Not Self-Aware. There's nothing wrong with a great monogamous relationship, and there's nothing wrong with a great open relationship. But it's a damn shame to ruin a great relationship because one party overestimates their ability to seperate love and sex.

    Whoa, holy inaccurate judgement, Batman! Seriously, you don't have to agree with it or even understand it...but the veiled criticism is kind of shitty. I bolded the parts I think you need to reconsider.

    Fact: You can lose your wife, kids, salary, possessions, dog, etc. to another man ANYTIME. It's called a divorce/remarriage. Which can and DOES happen in all kinds of marriages, monogamous and non-monogamous. Oh, and in case you weren't aware--your wife can fuck anyone she wants to, even with a ring on her finger. Unless your marriage vows came with a chastity belt, all you have is (hopefully) mutual respect for your agreement to be monogamous. If she decides to disregard those (see: cheating) and then fall for the dude she fucked, then you're just as screwed as you would've been if she fucked someone else WITH your permission/knowlege (see: open marriage) and then decided to leave you for him. The only difference is that one has much more betrayal involved...and it isn't the open relationship.

    Fact: Some people consider a divorce to be a "failed" relationship. Some people consider a breakup to be a "failed" relationship. And monogamous relationships have been failing for longer than people have been writing about them. Failure isn't a product of the "openness" of the relationship...it's a product of humanity.

    As for stable open relationships being "essentially non-existant"--where the fuck did you come across those statistics? Please cite your sources. I think you made that shit up as you typed it from your high horse.

    And your last question is ridiculous. You are leading the questions towards the answer you want to get. You want to see someone say "Oh, I want random tail because I'm insatiable! I am so narcissistic that I can't think of anyone else but myself and my own needs! I mean, fuck this selflessness shit. I just LOOOOVE me some random tail! In fact, I love it so much that I don't care what anyone thinks about me. I'm so broken that I can't form a normal, stable relationship like you fine monogmous folks can and I have to settle for being a sexual deviant instead! I need random tail to fill the hole Daddy left in my soul after he cornholed me from age 2 until I moved out the house! Yay!"

    Look, it is easy to get scorn from my peers. All I would have to do would be 1) Become a homosexual 2) An atheist 3) A Democrat 4) A vegan. Judgemental, conservative folk usually have trouble with all four. But seeing as I don't live my life according to "OMG what would the neighbors think?!" and neither do most modern adults, that isn't a huge concern (but it's very telling that it is one of yours). I want "random tail" because casual sex is fun. Being in love is awesome, making love with the person I'm in love with is even awesomer. But I don't feel I should have to give up casual sex/new sexual experiences with new people just because I'm in love with one person. I can have both, and I want both. Sorry the simple answer devoid of psychological damage doesn't interest you.


    So.....you'd only be jealous if she were young, hot, and widely desired? And once she got older, you wouldn't be jealous because her "sexual worth" would be lessened?

    Please be joking.
     
  8. toejam

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    Granted this isn't about a marriage, but it was still a committed relationship. An open relationship doesn't necessarily entail casual sex. I was on the 'open' end of an open relationship. I still might be, but that's unimportant. When I first starting hooking up with this girl she was honest with me. She told me she lived with her boyfriend of multiple years. Neither had looked for sex outside of their relationship before but she wanted to try it out. They discussed it together and decided that they loved and trusted one another enough to allow it. I was essentially pre-screened and OK'd.

    I didn't meet the boyfriend until after we had hooked up a few times. He's a good guy, and he was absolutely OK with the situation. They both told me her relationship with me made her feel good about herself, and he was happy about that. She tried to explain to me once or twice that our relationship actually made theirs stronger, so I don't doubt that their relationship was and still is stable. I'm younger and can be aloof, so occasionally she'd get frustrated with me not responding to her or things like that. They had enough mutual trust that he'd approach me to tell me her problems. There was nothing territorial, just open communication and occasional open sex.

    At some point I lost interest in the whole thing, but I am glad I did it. If I had a strong enough relationship with a girl I could see letting her fool around a little bit elsewhere as long as we discussed it beforehand. A little variety can help us understand ourselves and our place in a relationship better.
     
  9. gtg2k

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    I see this is getting a bit heavy. I'll try not to fuck it up.

    I am firmly convinced that monogamy is a learned behavior for most male animals. What convinced me about this was learning about "The Coolidge Effect", named after Calvin Coolidge, the 30th President of the US, and a story involving him.

    As the story goes, President and Mrs. Coolidge were taken on separate tours of a chicken farm, with Mrs. Coolidge going first. At a certain point in the tour, one of the farmers told the First Lady that the roosters mated with the hens up to 7 times a day. Mrs. Coolidge asked if the roosters did this all the time. When the farmer replied in the affirmative, Mrs. Coolidge said, "Tell that to the President".

    When President Coolidge reached that part of the tour, the farmer informed the President of that fact. President Coolidge, known for his taciturn manner and dry wit, asked if the roosters mated with the same hens every time every day, the farmer replied in the negative. The President said, "Tell that to Mrs. Coolidge".

    For all you naysayers out, this is a legit scientific term, and has been fully researched.

    My point is that men are biologically driven to be polygamous, but have learned to be monogamous. Is it completely healthy to be monogamous for life? I'm not certain, and don't feel qualified. I can say from personal experience that I was not monogamous until I met my wife. In her words, she "doesn't share well with others". I love my wife, and quite frankly had my fill of "strange", so I'm good being with my wife for the rest of my life.

    That doesn't mean I don't face temptation; just not enough to make me want to become polygamous again.

    This doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else, it's just who I am, and after discussions with other men, how they are.

    Just my $0.02
     
  10. Gramercy

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    Didn't we go over this on the old forum about a month ago? People aren't meant to be in a relationship for 70 years, we just put up with it because we're supposed to. Since the lifespan of humans used to be around 35 years, this wasn't really an issue until very recently.
     
  11. MoreCowbell

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    We can agree that this is the case from a rational, removed perspective. However, I think that for the vast majority of people, if you're husband/wife said, "I would like to try an open relationship" after years of monogamy and when you did not want one, it would be awfully hard not to translate this in your head to "I've found that you're not enough for me." That may not be right, or fair, but it is what the majority of people would hear in that situation. And no amount of open and clear discussion would take away the visceral, emotional impact of that.

    I'm of the opinion that while there is nothing wrong with an open relationship, it's something at upwards of 90% of the human population is not emotionally equipped to deal with.


    Ah, but you're forgetting an important part of this equation. Men are also biologically driven to be sexually territorial. The institution of marriage or something similar didn't come into existence in almost every human society by accident. While men may be driven to have sexual relations with as many women as possible, we're also driven to prevent said women from having relations with any other males. Male jealousy is to some degree an evolutionary strategy to maximize our reproductive success. More of our children, fewer of everyone else's.

    You'll rarely find bilateral polygamy in human populations; much more common is the 'harem' model. Also, in polygamous society, the trend is towards polygamy for the elite of society and monogamy for everyone else. Why? Because the elite have the resources to maintain and protect a harem of women who only have sexual relations with them or when convenient to the male.


    The fact that we aren't biologically primed for monogamy does not imply that we are biologically primed for open relationships. In fact, it is almost certain that we are not.
     
  12. Noland

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    I disagree. I actually look forward to getting to be an old, decrepit, useless drain on the children's bank accounts with Mrs. Noland. Maybe it's just me.

    Clearly, the thing you have to do with an open relationship is to be able to separate sex from love. I have had my fair share of loveless sex; casual hookups and friends with benefits are fun. But I do love Mrs. Noland. And I refuse to share her. She's mine.

    That sounds bad. If Bunny were here she'd undoubtedly make some comment that I was possessive and controlling and a product of a male centric society or some shit, but the other side of the coin is that I am hers, mind, body, and soul. Freely given. But only to her.

    I am incapable of separating sex from love when it comes to her. And I'm good with that. If it's your thing, then have at it. It's not for me.
     
  13. KIMaster

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    From what I've observed from friends, a SUCCESSFUL open relationship takes at least one of two things;

    1. Not truly loving the other person. Being fond and kind towards them sure, but not true love.
    2. Having a twisted and unusual psychology.

    Even with girlfriends that I've had just a small amount of genuine love for, I cannot conceive of allowing some other guy to fuck her. You're giving up that person to someone else. On the deepest level. The only way that doesn't hurt is if you don't care, or think that the pay-off from fucking some random hot girl is greater (which means you don't have actual love for them), or like scootah, you've had an unusual psychology from birth. (Don't forget that the guy has Asperger's, and was a very rare intellect)

    Why does it hurt? Why is it so repulsive? I don't know. Why is someone insulting you a source of anger? Why does betrayal hurt? Why are animal behaviors like eating their own waste or cannibalism so distasteful to human beings, too? It's just who we are.

    I guarantee that most of the people saying they would be fine with open relationships are writing so because the prospect of fucking lots of people sounds exciting, or they want to see forward-thinking and progressive. Some of my friends were the same way. And when they tried this with someone they deeply cared about, instead of a glorified hook-up, they couldn't handle it after a certain period of time.
     
  14. buuuurps

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    I'll agree with KIMaster here in that rational analysis, in these matters, can only go so far. Some feelings / emotional reactions are deeply ingrained in the human psyche, and you couldn't change them even if you wanted to.

    For instance, I could never accept my girlfriend sleeping with other men. Even if I had some divine guarantee that she would never, ever develop feelings for any of them or break up with me because of them, I just couldn't bear the thought of another guy fucking her. At the same time, I would have little to no issues with her having random affairs with other women. So how much sense does that make? Even though, in both scenarios, she would essentially be doing the same thing (fuck strangers without emotional attachment), I find one to be unbearable, and the other... well, kind of exciting, actually.

    I don't quite see why translating that wish into "I've found that you're not enough for me" would be so far off. In fact, isn't that exactly what you're saying, when you ask your partner for allowance to fuck other people? Sure, you're not saying that sex with your partner is horrible, or that he/she isn't enough for you in other aspects of the relationship, but as far as sexuality goes, I think "you're not enough for me" is probably pretty close to what someone who is looking for a polygamous relationship is thinking. Now, whether that's a bad thing or just a natural feeling is an entirely different question...

    On a more general note, I think any couple who is considering an open relationship would probably be well advised to try out a couple of threesomes, first. It's a pretty similar thing in that one partner is having sex with someone outside the relationship, but at least the other partner is also around (and part of the action). If they find that they're not ok with that, I can hardly see an open relationship working.

    Oh yea, and where did Dr. Rob go? I'd love if he chimed in on this topic.
     
  15. MoreCowbell

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    I meant that more in a "I find you personally to be inadequate, and that to some degree you're the problem here" kind of way. I think most people would take the suggestion as a statement of personal inadequacy/failure.
     
  16. Disgustipated

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    I've had a conversation about this with a close friend who I may be getting into a relationship with (it, like the rest of my life, is complicated).

    Basically, it turns out we're both fairly freaky sexually. Without using the words "open relationship" we've discussed fantasies of girls, threesomes, moresomes, orgies, what have you. I am by nature a fairly jealous person, and believe that that in and of itself is not a negative trait.

    Despite that, the way I look at it is that I want to give her everything she wants in life. If it's something that I can't give her, then I'm okay with her getting it from somewhere else. I can't give her a girl/girl experience as I'm a guy, so I've got no problem with here getting that somewhere else, as long as we're up front and honest about it. The same with multiple guys. Try as hard as I might, I'm only ever going to have one dick. So if she wants more than one, I'm prepared to do that too (as long as I'm in there). I'm not a fan of double standards.

    Where I draw the line if if she wants to sleep with one guy. She'd have her one guy - me. Just the same as I wouldn't have sex with another girl, because she'd by my girl. If I can swing a harem experience with her in there, good luck to me.
     
  17. ILikePie

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    I've been in several open relationships and am currently in one. I can say with absolute certainty that there is no rhyme or reason to your two options in my case. Relationship one was with a girl who was in college who had another boyfriend at the time. We were free to have sex with other people and shared no jealousy whatsoever.

    Relationship two was with another girl who was in college. We were free to have sex with other people and although sometimes we each felt a little jealousy this was not always the case. We would just get over it and move on within a a few days. We shared deep feelings for each other so this was probably why. Up until recently we had remained good friends.

    The one I am in now, I do not love her although she does love me. If I'm being completely honest sometimes I still get a small pang of jealousy but only when I am not having sex with anyone at the time myself.

    By nature I am a novelty seeker so this is why I like being in these open relationships. I enjoy meeting new people and trying new things. They provide me with something new that my girlfriend may not be able to provide me. This may not always be the case as with one particular girlfriend in my past, I couldn't fathom sharing her with anyone.

    The arrangements I've always had are to ALWAYS use condoms, be upfront, no friends, and no coworkers. If at any time one of these rules is broken, the relationship is over.
     
  18. Lupusaid

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    I'm not married to my partner but I have been with her for 16 years. We have a mortgage and a cat which is in my opinion as much of a commitment to each other as a piece of paper stating exclusive bonership.

    We have had an open relationship since the beginning and it’s still going strong. I’ve had several long term partners while I have been with her and countless one night stands. She on the other hand has had a couple of one night stands but on the whole is monogamous to me. I don’t think she’s actually fucked anyone else for about 10 years.

    The idea that we don’t love each other because I sometimes stick my dick in other women is as ridiculous as suggesting our love is marginalised because I don’t share her interest in knitting.
     
  19. KIMaster

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    So this girl was cheating on her boyfriend with you, and both of you were fucking lots of other people on the side. Sounds like there wasn't love on either side, just a desire to fuck. How was I wrong again?

    Uh-huh. How did that one end, by the way?

    Way to refute my point.

    Like I typed above, it's possible to love someone and have a successful open relationship with them...but it requires a twisted and unusual psychological mindset alien to the overwhelming majority of human beings.
     
  20. MoreCowbell

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    That statement is bizarrely normative.