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Is our children learning?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrFrylock, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. Primer

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    This is the biggest issue I have with most schooling in this day and age. Not only is that 80-85% outdated but you're never going to use that knowledge. I went to a tech school (NAIT) and earned my diploma in Telecommunication Engineering; it basically means that I'm one step lower than an actual engineer on the chart of employment. That being said, I would like to go back to school to earn my full degree in Engineering for the fact that the work I do now isn't fulfilling enough.

    Problem is that degrees aren't worth a whole lot anymore. Over in the Eastern provinces of Canada (Newfoundland, PEI, ect), they ran into this issue a long time ago, where everyone on the fucking coast has a degree in something. The job market has never been very strong over there, so you've got people working at gas stations who have degrees in Chemical Engineering; it also means that when one market in Canada becomes strong, they flood it.

    The only way you can actually justify getting a degree anymore is if you go and get your masters or your doctors; an additional 3-7 years of school, depending on program and the possibility of being in school for 7-12 years before getting into the workforce. I've got one friend, who is fucking brilliant; he's got his Chemists degree and has been for the last two years, applying for a position in a masters program at a few universities. This guy left Uni with a ~3.9 average and has more references than I've got pairs of underwear and he's been getting stonewalled at every turn.

    I'm not saying Uni is a bad thing; it can be very helpful to focus where you're going if you've got only an okay idea on your life plan but it shouldn't be considered a crux for success.
     
  2. Zazz

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    I fall into just about every bad category discussed here. I went to a party school (go Buffs), changed majors twice, took 6 years to finally graduate with a worthless degree in English, and had no redeeming skills to put on paper when I did graduate.

    So is my degree a sham? Probably. I went to college not knowing what I wanted to do. I wasn't a shut in or closed-minded; I explored a number of majors and they were all the same to me. I went through a couple years thinking I’d just do what everyone else does and go into business, but then realized I wasn’t at all interested in a 9-5, so I’d get a degree in something I enjoyed. Fully aware that the only thing I could really do with an English degree was to write or teach, and having no interest in doing either, I still felt like I had to finish school. Thanks to my grandfather I have no debts from student loans, and I have that little piece of paper that says I can follow directions and work toward a goal and finish it, and if I ever look for a real job at least I can show them that.

    I understand and respect and maybe envy those of you who have a passion for or even a slight interest in your work or what you’re studying, but I just saw it as something I had to do. That being said, I loved college. I got to sleep until noon, get drunk on a Tuesday just because it was Tuesday, play sports, and have many meaningless one night stands. In other words, I took six years to take my real-world training wheels off. What’s the rush, for me anyway? I’m not late for any crusade that I’m aware of.
     
  3. Sicnevol

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    I think its all about how you view college.
    If you look at college like some kind of job training then yes, its bullshit.
    I don't look at school that way. I'm in school because I like to learn, and I think my undergrad will make me a well rounded person. Its is not there to prepare me for a "Job". Most undergrad programs are there to force you to learn about the world around you, not to prepare you for a job.
    I mean other then the obvious Medical and Engineering stuff.

    Its all about your expectations.
     
  4. Beefy Phil

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    Depending on who you ask, we're all fucked anyway. You can be educated up the wazoo, but if there are no jobs to fill, it doesn't make a lick of difference. By the time recovery occurs, if it occurs, there will be someone six years younger than you with the same degrees who'll work for half the money, leaving you to wonder how it is that you're 32 and still in the equivalent of an entry-level position with an MA/MBA/JD/Whateverthefuck.

    I do so hope we all paid close attention in Hobo Skills 101.
     
  5. Frank

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    I repped this to you but:

    Agreed, but the main selling point colleges always use is the higher average income angle, they create a perception that it WILL be a good financial investment and from that standpoint it is a sham in many respects.

    Also, dude, I understand the "I like learning thing" but for christ's sake are you suggesting that you would accumulate that mountain of debt if it had absolutely no benefit career wise? You do realize you can just buy the text books and learn on your own for a hell of a lot cheaper, right?

    Not to mention the fact that 6 years of un/underemployment is 6 years further away from when you got your degree with no experience to keep you fresh in the mean-time. They'd probably pay the younger guy more because he's less removed from actually practicing the subject matter.
     
  6. Beefy Phil

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    What kills me is watching my friends "escape" into these grad schools and law schools like they were the first ones to think of riding out the storm in a classroom. A pitifully small percentage of them have the kind of hook-up they need to succeed in their fields, and Christ knows what's going to happen to that arrangement three years down the road. Daddy can't get you a job if he's out on his ass by the time you reach 3L. Education in New York State is a bloated market, law jobs are a memory, and I can pee off my porch and hit an MBA any time of day. The typical 'fallback' careers are fucked to pieces.

    The worst part is that this information is not a secret. It's not just guys like Philalawyer talking about it anymore. People don't want to hear it, though, because they're special and different. Yeah, that's the ticket. Special and different.
     
  7. RCGT

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    Like you, I'm a junior now, going to a Top 10* school for International Affairs, and I'm in a pretty specific program there - no math or science courses, loaded with language, economics, history, and political science courses. We had the same deal - famous speakers, knowledgeable professors, etc, etc. I plan to work for the government - one field that I hope is never saturated, and it's always been one of my goals to boot. Currently I'm studying abroad in the Middle East. Do I like college? Hell yes. Do I think I'll be able to survive in this changing economy? Who the hell knows. I'd appreciate some input from those of you who have a better grasp on this stuff than me - all I know is, I'm going to get my degree, I might go for more education (but after I'm in the job market hopefully, and after I know what it's for), and I'm gonna hope like hell I actually get a job I like, while trying to beef up the resume to make sure it happens.

    Anyone know if I'll be all shored up against the tide of globalization, or homeless after graduation?

    *Capitalized for officialness.
     
  8. Czechvodkabaron

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    I wish that this thread had been around when I was 18 and headed off to college. Of course, when I was 18 all of this advice probably would have gone in one ear and out the other, but it would have still been good to see.

    I graduated with a B.S. in Geography in 2009. I have been trying to find a GIS job but have been unsuccessful. I have had a few interviews but nothing has worked out.

    One person mentioned that the longer that you are out of a job, the more qualified people that you will be up against when you apply to future jobs. This is one thing that I have been paranoid about, especially since my field is one in which there is always being new versions of software developed for the users.

    I enjoyed the college life but if I could go back and do it all over again the first thing that I would do is care more about my grades. I was told that "grades don't matter as long as you have that piece of paper." Wrong. On most of the job applications that I have filled out I have been asked for my GPA, and have been encouraged to provide portfolios of my work.

    I am currently working at a convenience store (that is a large chain) and I think I might be better off trying to get into management there and make a career out of it. I don't particularly like the job: it is stressful, the hours suck, and the customers suck. But, it pays well and I don't have to worry about being laid off, since people will always be buying things from there.

    My advice is basically the same as everybody else's: don't go to college unless you know what you want to do, make sure that it is useful in the real world, know that you can make good grades, and develop some real world experience through work and/or internships before you graduate.
     
  9. A-Ron

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    I'll be graduating with a B.S. in biology this coming spring. Unfortunately, this is the sort of science degree where its difficult to go directly into your field without a graduate degree, unless you work for your state's agricultural deptartment (or something similar) or as a lab technician working long hours. However, I can say that the knowledge and critical thinking skills I've gained from my college would prepare me for many other sort of jobs, not just ones in my field.

    I'm hoping to make it into graduate school and then possibly medical school - if that's where life takes me, but obviously that is a massive amount of formal education. My choices after graduating next spring are either that or the Air Force in order to support my further education.

    Do I think its worth it? Maybe - if I end up with a good job in a medical or research field. On the other hand, maybe not, when you look at some of my friends who are making much much more after learning a trade skill and using it.

    To me, its been difficult justifying the cost of going to college, especially because I changed my major and ended up staying longer. I spent a ton of money for a degree that will NOT make up for it anytime soon, but, had I not gone to school, I wouldn't have grown as a person and developed all of the skills (interpersonal and scientific) that I have today. I literally would not be the same person at all.

    To top it all off: I still have no idea what I want to do.
     
  10. audreymonroe

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    I just finished college in three years. I graduated from a niche school with a very specific course of training. It was completely worth it. I do feel like I'm ahead of the pack because I was able to fine-tune my education so closely to what I actually wanted to study. I was able to major in magazine publishing, versus just being an English major, or even a journalism major. I learned a ton of valuable things that not many people my age with similar levels of experience know. At my first internship, it amazed me how little people knew. I can honestly say I didn't learn a thing from that internship that I hadn't already learned in the classroom.

    But, for all my raving, the main reason I graduated in three years (right after the financial gain: I'm graduating with less debt than anyone I know...which also is due to my dad saving since I was born...thanks, Daddy!) is that I knew I didn't need it. I had all the gen eds taken care of and knew if I stayed another year I'd just be fucking around taking random classes just for the hell of it and I knew that would be a waste of my time. It's a little weird watching all my friends go back to school, but hot damn am I happy that I'm done.

    I agree with what some other people have been saying. How much an education is worth really depends on the person and their goals. I'm not sure I see the point of going "just because" for all of the high school seniors who have no idea what they want to do with their lives. I knew exactly what I wanted to do, and had been confidant about it for a while, so it made a lot of sense to go the route I chose. The school helps too. Mine only had maybe a dozen majors, all of which could rarely be found at any other schools, so it attracted really good faculty (many of which quit teaching at Harvard and B.U to teach at Emerson-where I went - because they had found the student body so boring and annoying) and a student body that was passionate, driven and talented, which was always inspiring. When I show my resume with Emerson on it to the people in the industries I'm interested in, it's like showing a resume with Princeton to an investment banker.

    I'm really proud of my education, and thankful for it. But I know I probably wouldn't be so passionate about it if I had just gone to some other school.
     
  11. ssycko

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    The Last Psychiatrist has some good points on the topic,but really just points out what too many people have known for years: College degree no longer equals job in field.

    My mom teaches in the city of Buffalo Public Schools, and from her I get to hear some terrible ideas that come out of the head offices. The relevant one here is that the Superintendent has made, as some 5-year plan goal, to have every student in the BPS to be in at least one AP class. Absolutely awful idea. I'm not sure what the college placement is exactly, but it's somewhere around 10-20% for the entire city. These kids don't need to be learning calculus and don't need to discuss the merits of F. Scott Fitzgerald's metaphoric grace, they need to learn skills that will get them a job. The city closed the one vocational school it had, which was again a terrible idea. The fact that higher-ups are pushing for everyone to go to college is ridiculous and bad and stupid and augh. If this continues, it's going to end with the entirety of the young adult population wandering around aimlessly, waiting for the perfect job to fall into their lap because... "they have a degree now."

    That being said, I'm completely satisfied with my college-going experience. I learned a lot about a lot that would have taken me much longer to learn had I skipped college, and the majority of it is applicable to real world jobs. Being able to walk into a studio and actually know what's going on and what all the levers and buttons and knobs and doohickeys do was worth the money I spent.

    The people who said that college is what you make of it were completely correct. If you go in with a goal, soak up as much information as possible, meet as many people as possible, and work as hard as you can (while leaving time for drinking and getting your dick wet/vagine plundered) then it will be worth it. If you have no idea what you want to do when you get out of college and are just going to "find yourself," don't sink yourself into debt. There are easier ways to find out what you love to do.
     
  12. shauncorleone

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    Working as a Computer Programmer, I can confidently say that nothing I have ever learned that has any bearing on my career today was learned in a classroom. I was a self-taught novice in highschool, was lucky enough to get a job where I could exercise a little creativity in college, and I got my first job during what was supposed to be my final semester of school. The only reason I even finished my degree program nearly 4 years after leaving school was because I was 3 classes shy and my parents really wanted it for me. Most fields are of the same nature as being a developer, but if you are not willing to learn on the job and continue to develop your skillset, you will lose a great opportunity to someone who will.

    [slightly political rant]
    The overwhelming views expressed in this discussion are why I'm so angered with every pundit and politician's push to get everyone into college. "They deserve the opportunity to learn". Yes, they do, which is why we shouldn't be banning books, teaching bullshit mandatory liberal studies programs or imposing any barriers on those who have an interest in learning anything. After school programs for middle and highschool kids should be held in goddamn libraries. I taught myself basic C and C++ skills out of a Dummies Book my dad bought for $4, and I was hooked. Kids need access to technology and to mentors who can help them find the information they need to learn about areas of life that inspire them. They don't all automatically need 5 years of binge drinking and $80k in loans they'll spend the rest of their lives paying back $100 at a time. You can still do the binge drinking without college. True story.
    [/rant]

    Oh, and I like most of Ken Robinson's talks on TED:
    Schools Kill Creativity
    Bring on the Revolution
     
  13. Aetius

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    I'm going to take the opposite tack. I'm going to blame employers.

    Oh, so you're not going to hire anyone that doesn't have at least a BA? Ok.
    Oh, so you're going to base your promotion and raise schedules on advanced degrees? Ok.
    Oh, so you're never going to hire someone without experience, and always list "1-3 years experience" for every entry level position? Ok.
    Oh, so you're going to abandon a legitimate interview process in favor of outsourcing it to professors and the general grind of formal education? Ok.

    Congratulations, you've just perverted the fuck out of the incentives in the labor market. Companies didn't want to do the work of building the employee they wanted, they didn't want to invest in any individual, they didn't want to look for potential and cultivate it. Just like every other aspect of this society, they wanted to see labor as a resource to be exploited without mind for how it is generated.
     
  14. dubyu tee eff

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    Look, I understand college does not make people much smarter. I understand that most of the value of a degree is that it serves as a signal to employers that you are capable of committing to pursue a project that lasts several years. I understand it leaves you with a mountain of debt and a lack of valuable experience. I've even read quite a bit about why replacing the degree manufacturers with vocational or technical schooling would be far more efficient.

    The fact remains: Currently the unemployment rate for those with an undergraduate degree is about 4.5%. Compared to the rate of those who lack a degree, (can't remember the exact number but it was about 12-14% if I remember right) a college graduate is much much better off. And this includes garbage majors like communications and poli sci. I'd be willing to bet those with a degree in a hard science or economics are even better off. You guys have to realize, Philalawyer is a very smart guy, but the world is not collapsing; the law profession is. This will skew how he sees things. Getting a degree in a hard science is still an excellent investment, at the least, it's a great insurance policy. Fact is, the majority of the brunt of this recession is being felt by the lesser educated underclass who were employed in industries like construction, manufacturing, and other hard labor work.

    I really don't know what you math majors are talking about. Mathematics is still among the most valuable degrees one can get. I know Finance loves you guys.
     
  15. dubyu tee eff

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    Could this be because people have gravitated towards a pattern of shifting jobs and careers more often that in the past? I don't have any data but my general impression is that earlier generations used to sign up for a job when they were young and there was a decent chance that they would spend the entirety of their careers moving up the ladder in the same company. I think nowadays the labor force is far more mobile and this greatly reduces the incentive for a company to invest in a person. If this is the case, then who can blame them?
     
  16. Aetius

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    I think you're putting the chicken before the egg. I think the multiple career approach came about because companies ceased to be loyal to their employees (and in some instances defaulted on pension obligations entirely). There is no security in a job these days, and thus there is no loyalty, rather than the other way around.
     
  17. Volo

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    I think the level of loyalty a company has for it's employees is largely based on the size of the business in question, and the field it's in.

    I hear nothing but complaints from friends of mine who are employed in engineering, accounting, law, etc. You know, fields that operate on a more "professional" level. On the other hand, from those who work in small retail outlets and restaurants, myself included, I hear very little bitching about being under-appreciated. Hell, my current boss takes very good care of me and I've only been with his company for a couple of months. He's investing in me because he sees potential and because he knows he has to pay for quality. This is something he's spoken with me about on several occasions and he's well aware from past experience that a properly treated chef will help his restaurants run smoother.

    Now, keep in mind that he's worth a shitload of money and if he chose to he wouldn't have to work another day in his life. He could just coast off of the little empire he's built and treat his staff like resources instead of people. Yeah, his boat would sink after a couple years, but he's old enough to retire and has the finances to do so. Thing is, he hasn't yet and likely won't for a long time.

    Might just be the restaurant industry for all I know, since that's the only field I really fully understand.
     
  18. BL1Y

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    I have a BA in English and Philosophy from 'Bama, and a JD from NYU.

    While I feel like I got shafted in the quality of the education at NYU (academic circle jerk for 3 years, then they pass you off to law firms to actually learn shit), like most people I find my current existence to be "sticky," meaning that for no good reason, I prefer my actual experiences to the equally good or even better experiences I could of had if things had gone differently. (Probably a good evolutionary development that keeps us from fretting too much over missed opportunities.)

    But, if I had to change my education, I think I should have stayed on at Alabama and gotten and MFA in creative writing before going to law school. I was 20 when I graduated (turned 21 that summer) and it would have been good to have a year of being legal in a college town. Plus, I think I would have gotten so much more out of law school by being a bit older and more mature, and also would have been more likely to have the good sense to (1) instigate stupid shit and (2) write it down.
     
  19. DrFrylock

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    As someone "in the business," I'm intensely curious about this. When did you learn about things like O-notation, LALR1 grammars, the differences between procedural, functional, object-oriented, and logic programming, data structures, search and graph algorithms, design patterns, and so on?

    These are the sorts of fundamental things that you will not readily "absorb" from day-to-day programming experience. I mean, they're not impossible to learn on your own - if you read the right books or had appropriate mentors, they may have served as an adequate substitute for you - but I have met self-taught programmers who were well into long and ostensibly successful careers who were making fundamental and critical mistakes because they didn't understand some of these basic concepts.

    ~ ~ ~ ~

    Me, I view college as important, because it is an opportunity to do three things that are hard to do otherwise:

    1. Study and focus on the fundamentals of a field that you will not learn in day-to-day work experience and are hard to learn from even directed self-study.
    2. Obtain and work in part-time jobs or internships related to your chosen field where you will be able to learn more, make more mistakes, and have less responsibility than you would in starting a "real job," while earning a little less and making that up through loans, scholarship, or your college fund.
    3. Establish a professional social network of peers and more senior people that can facilitate your future career.

    Many, if not most people in college seem to only do (1) as far as homework and tests require it, maybe do a little bit of (3) passively, and fully ignore (2). When other people in this thread say "college is what you make of it," I think of the difference between the people I knew who were actively doing all three things vs. the people who just skated by doing the minimum. Those people had a lot more fun and tons of free time, which they used to play Counter-Strike, or try to get ass, or get drunk, or whatever.

    During a typical week in college, I'd spend roughly 25% of my working time in class, 40% of my time at an internship (100% during the summer), 25% doing homework or studying, and 10% doing undergrad research. Between all of these activities I was putting in maybe 50-60 hours a week on average (40 during the summer, just doing an internship).

    I probably worked harder then than I do now, but I was younger, had more to learn, and had more energy. Either way, the time I spent in college was valuable for me for all those reasons. I wonder, then, if the "college is useless" crowd didn't (or wouldn't) "take advantage" of college.
     
  20. Nettdata

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    Ahhh, the ignorance of the educated. (place winky emoticon here)

    I'll tell you right now that on the 140 person development team that I manage, very few people on it actually know most of what you're describing.

    The vast majority of programmers not only don't know that stuff, but really, don't have to.

    Most of them come in with a basic understanding of object oriented programming, and simple data structures, but most of the knowledge and experience of when and how to apply the specifics in various situations is something that is learned by experience.

    An Agile development methodology goes a along way to helping with this as well, as to continuous code reviews and constant feedback.

    But in "the real world", the "we don't need it done right, we need it done Wednesday" mantra is the one that works.


    As a Systems and Application Architect, my job is to lay out the physical and logical structures of hardware and software. I'll also do a ton of proof of concepts that I'll hand of to be made smarter/better by those that know more than I do. The Lead Developers that work under me for the various teams are responsible for their specific implementations of the chunks of code they're working on. They review with me what and how they're doing stuff, and are in turn responsible for getting the knowledge passed on to their teams.

    So very much of the work that is done is really just following conventions (exception handling, etc) and such, which is incredibly crucial when dealing with 20+ third-party web services, and a tightly couple client-server system.

    To me, understanding how to use basic group-based tools (source control, iterative build/test, code review, etc), is way more important than knowing the exactly perfect data structure.

    I've just fired my 3rd PhD last week, as he just couldn't build shit. He was soooo wrapped up in documenting stuff, ensuring he understood the last little bit of the requirements, etc., that he never really got shit done. Someone who just got into it, and hammered out something reasonable that might need a bit of tweaking or tuning, but provided something usable, is way more beneficial to the effort.


    99% of coding is really Blue Collar Factory Work. Don't kid yourself.

    There are a few people who get to go off and investigate new tech, develop cutting edge algorithms, etc., but they are few and far between.


    Anyone in the industry really owes it to themselves to go watch Zed Shaw's video on Steak and Strippers. And his "The Death of the Access Control List". He's an outspoken asshole, but I love what he says, respect the hell out of him, and think he's bang on with those 2 videos.