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Hey honey, I'm taking a Free Day! Be home by midnight!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Samr, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. Samr

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  2. Misanthropic

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    I wouldn't call her ugly, exactly, but for a grand a week she'd better be very good in bed.

    I think negotiated infidelity and open marriage sounds much better than it actually is. My primary issues would be my own traditionalism and hang ups. Even if my wife approached me with the idea and assured me she wouldn't mind, I'd wind up feeling guilty if I followed through with it. Right off the bat I'd wonder why she was offering this, or would agree to it, i.e., did she have something going on the side that she was compensating for, or feeling guilty about.

    Even if we both worked past all of that, I'd always have the suspicion that things would blow up in my face down the road. After all, women never change their minds, right?
     
  3. Supertramp

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    I was on a business trip and I made friends with some older guys (I was the youngest there). I had a long discussion with a former 40-something investment banker that worked from the Caymans 6months a year, he's seen his fair share of crooks and had a bunch of great stories about life and people. Talk of marriage came up and without expressing it personally, he emphasized that the best marriages are the ones where both spouses are philandering.

    He told me that back in his college days he was dating girls and getting all jealous when they'd act inappropriately but today if he caught his wife cheating on him, his first reaction would be "great, my turn now".

    Maybe this thought-process will permeate through society, because I can't see how I'd marry someone and not get sexually bored within 5 years in today's culture.
     
  4. effinshenanigans

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    Whether it's cultural conditioning or something else, I don't think I could handle an open marriage. It's one thing if I'm casually dating someone else (and someone else, and someone else, etc.) and things are mutually open because of the situation. But marriage, to me, is different. I know that there are a bunch of happily married couples in open relationships, and if it makes them happy, then that's great. As for me, no matter what guidelines were established, I wouldn't want my wife running off and getting some strange cock in her even if it meant that I could go off on and bang some other chick. Maybe it's jealousy, or immaturity, or insecurity. Maybe it's a caveman-esque "she's mine and no one else's" instinct. It's probably a combination of all of that. But I wouldn't be able to handle it.

    Honestly, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever trusted any woman enough to be ok with them having sex with someone else. Maybe it's due to a fading faith in humanity combined with the experience of being cheated on. I think it takes a truly special couple to pull it off successfully without either of the two regretting it or questioning its purpose. I will never be a member of that couple. And I'm fine with that.

    Now, bringing another girl into bed with us is a completely different story. At least we're in that together.
     
  5. Disgustipated

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    Scootah to the white courtesy phone.....

    I would think it would take an exceptional couple, in which both people are of the extraordinary characteristic where they are able to deal with it. For normal people; fuck no. It's a recipe for disaster. A lot of people will say they're fine with it. That means they're cool with themselves doing it. When it comes to the partner, all bets are off.

    Unless, of course, they really don't give a fuck about each other anymore. In which case, it's a sham that they're still together and doesn't count.
     
  6. kuhjäger

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    This is exactly it for most people.

    To most men, an open marriage means that you fuck other women, while your wife doesn't.

    There is something about the fact that the man is actually going into your wife, that she is getting her hole filled, that makes it feel so different and wrong.
     
  7. Sherwood

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    I dunno man, my idea of an open marriage is where we both fuck other women. Preferably at the same time.
     
  8. WickedBitch

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    Plus, most women put at least some bit of emotion into sex, especially if it's an ongoing affair (with permission or not) with the same person. Eventually, inevitably, usually, someone falls in love, which is one reason I wouldn't be all for it. Women are fucking crazy and having once been on the receiving end of one obsessed mistress, I wouldn't knowingly open myself up to that again. Then again, my husband has shitty taste in women, if I do say so myself.

    While it is not as big a problem with men falling in love, it would still make me want to say no. Some men (but not many apparently) take their wedding vows seriously and would turn down a willing woman and go home to their wives. Allowing that man to say yes instead of no opens the door for the possibility that he might fall in love with her and leave you. That possibility wouldn't have been there before because he would have come home instead of diving in. Does that make sense?

    However, I think "negotiated infidelity" would immensely help my marriage, or at least, it would help me but that's because I am the deprived party here. And while it is probable that the reason he won't have sex with me is because I'm old, fat and ugly (though he is too, to be frank), there has to be someone out there just as old, fat, ugly and desperate as me that would be willing to lay some pipe to me. At this point, beggars can't be choosers y'know. And I can guarantee I won't fall in love because, between the video game store and home, I am up to my freaking eyeballs in men as it is.

    In fact, I have told my husband point blank that if something doesn't change soon, he either needs to allow me to go out and do what I need to or he needs to accept that I am going to do it behind his back. I have already begun to work on the weight issue but I will unfortunately continue to be old and ugly, but this will happen, one way or another. Because I am still nursing and am nearly continually chained to an infant and thusly hormonal, I'm not really frisky these days so this isn't such an issue right now but it is going to be.

    And this may be yet another reason that my husband won't have sex with me, if I may wax theoretic for one more second. I have been either pregnant or nursing for more than a year now. It may also be those hormones (and the lack of sex) that make me more down on myself than usual. I'm not that old - Tucker's older than I am. I'm not that fat - I weigh a good bit less than 200 and only need to lose 35 pounds to move out of the overweight category. I'm not that ugly either supposedly, though that is open to interpretation. And no, I won't be doing some ridiculous Twinkle-Toezz thread where I open myself up to criticism. I am critical enough of myself, thanks.
     
  9. Viking33

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    Not a chance in hell my girlfriend gets permission to fuck a random dude. Would I love to smash the gorgeous girl at the bar? Absolutely. Will I? No. Because as soon as I'm hitting something besides my girlfriend, why would I call her my girlfriend? She'd be a glorified friend with benefits at that point and that's not what I'm dating her for. Like others have said; call it naive, caveman, alpha, whatever- if I'm going Mario Bros and laying pipe to my girlfriend, nobody else is. Period. Open the door to me crushing new gut and she's free to say "it's only fair if Tommy from work can have his turn in the pump room". No.
     
  10. Harry Coolahan

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    "Negotiated infidelity" in a relationship is fine if both parties are okay with it (though, having been in an open relationship before, I don't think I'd be open to it again), but it seems like it would be very difficult to sustain in a long-term relationship. Marriage is, theoretically, a life-long commitment. Is an open relationship going to be a "phase" you go through with your spouse, or is that going to be a lifestyle? Seems like a recipe for disaster, too much potential to spiral out of control. And, that doesn't even include the prospect of kids.

    All that aside, the woman in that article is an absolute idiot.
     
  11. lust4life

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    For me, this strikes at the very core of the sanctity of marriage, but if it's what you want and it works for you and yours, more power to you. But I agree, as some have already mentioned, that few couples can actually make it work. Once the novelty wears off and human emotions surface and come into play, the whole dynamic changes. As for those who are capable of that kind of emotional detachment, I'm not really sure what that says about them.
     
  12. Samr

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    From a biological, evolutionary, academic and strategic standpoint, the idea of a somewhat-open relationship/marriage or "negotiated infidelity" makes perfect sense. Guys are wired to constantly want to spread their seed to as many partners as possible, and unless the girl is a nymphomaniac that rides him so often he wraps his dick with a white flag, the dude is going to have "urges" to stray. Thusly, in theory, the "happiest" relationships/marriages would be ones in which the above is fulfilled. And that's just one of the positives, amongst many.

    I get it. And I get that it takes a certain personality type to fight the natural human urges and feelings (jealousy being the main one) that go against the above theory and standpoint. I have a rather strong case of PTSD, and since a medical incident several years ago certain "feelings" are either lacking or compromised in myself. I find it difficult to reach a point of empathy for others under certain circumstances; I am "steeled" to personal trauma; I also look at things from an increasingly biological/evolutionary standpoint. I could go on and more in-depth on myself personally, but there is no need.

    Regardless of the above, I'll go with what basically every male on this thread has said. My wife is my wife, and regardless of how academically I want to look at this, I am rather "classical" in my view of marriage and in my participation within it. Cheating on her is equivalent to physically beating her, and her reciprocating to me is true as well.

    I do know there are a few "deviants" on this board in regard to the thread's focus, and I'm really curious to hear the other end of the spectrum.
     
  13. scootah

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    This is something I've talked about on the old boards in the Ask a Pervert stuff and maybe here as well. In every relationship - there's some kind of power exchange, some kind of implicit or explicit agreement about what is and what isn't ok. In most relationships - that agreement is purely implicit and completely unspoken when it comes to sex, and mostly unspoken about everything else. So for the duration of a relationship - everything just falls into place and that's where it's stuck. He's mostly on top, she's mostly the one giving head, he mostly pays for dinner, she mostly cooks at home. Social norms and preconceptions fill in blanks and individual preference just doesn't get a look in.

    Renegotiating those roles is difficult and traumatic. The half drunken conversation after months of emotional investment comes with tears and drama and pain. It's a bloody hindering nuisance at best. And there's almost no possible avenue to raise some changes. How do you tell your significant other that you want to fuck someone else? Or that you've always wanted to know what it's like with a strap on? Or that if she'd just sit on your face and slap your cock around with a pingpong paddle, you'd give her head untill you got lock jaw. Hell, maybe you just always wondered what asshole tastes like. It's a huge gamble to put that out there after you've got the emotional investment and the safety of the kind of working relationship. You don't want to hurt them by being a weirdo and you don't want to find out that the story of exactly what broke you up has done the rounds of every mutual acquaintance. Implicit dynamics suck.

    In a BDSM relationship - you have a much more explicit set of norms and expectations and you have a much more explicit channel for negotiation. Discretion is expected and there's no real barriers to saying 'look, I really like anal sex, but nothing above three inch diameter'.

    In a more conventional relationship - it's harder to bring up those sort of dynamics - but if you can - both partners in a relationship certainly
     
  14. Dcc001

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    If this was the old board, The Bunny would burn me in effigy for saying this:

    I'm pretty certain that I don't have it in me to be in an open relationship. Never been with anybody exclusively or long-term, but that's because I think I only have one "fall in love" chance in me, if even that, so I've never cheated. Having said that...if I was married, and my husband had the occasional fling behind my back and I never found out or suspected, I don't think that would be a terrible thing. Provided he used a condom and didn't open our relationship up to any kind of disease, it might not be bad. I think human beings have an immense dual-nature: it is possible to both love your wife dearly, and want to fuck the hot 20-year-old receptionist. It doesn't mean you'll leave your wife or even that you love her less.

    The idea of negotiated infidelity, though, doesn't work for me. In this circumstance - for me, at least - ignorance would be bliss.
     
  15. Crown Royal

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    Every relationship in their own way, is different. Everybody has different opinions on what "going to far" is in a relationship. Some people will be as short as to forgive their so-called better half for sleeping with someone else because they were "really wasted" when it happened, but some will go as far as to ask for a divorce is seen hugging a co-ed that they have known for years.

    Speaking for myself as a married person, I wouldn't be up for swinging or this horseshit "negotiated infidelity". Ask yourself this before you take it into consideration: How do you picture yourself reacting while viewing somebody you don't know banging the living piss out of the one you love ten ways from Tuesday right before your very eyes?

    I think new couples looking for something freaky-deaky could see some fun in this, because the attachment guilt hasn't settled in yet. Personally, once you're committed then you've set sail. I don't believe in "sanctity" when it comes to marriage, since anybody can do it high off their ass on blow and percocet in front of a fucking Elvis impersonator and still have that in stone.

    This of course, in my opinion. If swapping floats your boat and saves you marriage then go for it.

    ...and shower in between, asshole.
     
  16. scootah

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    The chick writing the article is pimping her book, so her article and to a degree the opinions behind her article are either falsified to draw attention or are just a reflection of her career choices. I'm kind of ignoring most of it so I can avoid angry ranting.

    My observation is that the success of these sort of dynamics depends a lot on the libido and sexual preferences of the people involved. Disparate libido's or strongly driven bisexuality from one or both partners makes a big difference. Some specific kinks from individual partners can also make it work - voyeurism in particular can be a big driver. A guy who gets off on watching, or knowing that his partner is being fucked by someone else is probably the best possible candidate (although there are other less common kinks that serve the same purpose) from heterosexual men to be able to enjoy the fact that his wife is doing other guys. The alpha male posession thing is hard to rationalise otherwise.

    Alt. Focus: Have any experience with it? What did/didn't work for you?[/quote]

    Negotiated is probably the biggest part of this topic. We adjust the rules based on what we need and what we're ok with as time goes on and our relationship changes. It's hard to talk about this without being a gloating douche - but I'll try. Probably the first rule is that we both have to like the people involved - or at least not dislike them. We're involved on some level or other with a bunch of people - and it's not worth fucking up our relationship to add someone that the other doesn't like, or who doesn't fit in the mix. So if Jessica Alba really wanted my dick - but she didn't get on with Nikki - it would be a non starter before anything else came up. If she didn't get on with the other people we play with - it would probably be the same deal - but people other than Nikki are less important.

    The next rule is that they have to know the deal. They have to know that we're married and that no matter what, our relationship with them will ALWAYS come second to our relationship with each other. We both have the whole ethical disclosure thing and think it's a basic responsiblity to disclose relevant information to sexual partners and try and give them access to as much information about our relationships as they want. But they have to convince us that they really understand that they might be our pet, our girlfriend or boyfriend or even our loved one - but they're still not going to be either equally or more important than the husband/wife dynamic.

    The rules going out from there get more complicated and situational. With this person this is ok and that's ok and the other isn't ok. With that person everything's ok. You can't try and blanket consistent and universal rules beyond a certain point - and you can't rules lawyer that shit. You can't be dredging up precedents and throwing around blame for who said what was ok when. You need to communicate a LOT and you need to realise that sometimes the rules will be completely irrational and you either need to negotiate to something that you're both comfortable with, live with the rules or give up on the complicated dynamic.

    Knowing each other really, really, really well is also a big thing. Nikki and I know each other's body language and non verbal cues so well it's stupid. We used to have code words in the beginning - phrases we could drop into conversation without other people knowing to let each other know that we were interested in some third party, or that we were uncomfortable and needed to backoff - but at this point I can tell from a look if Nikki is into someone or if she's uncomfortable - and paying attention to those cues and responding to them appropriately is a big deal.

    Part of any kind of dynamic like this has to be trusting that you can take what was done as part of the rules as the past and if it's not working or you - change the rules, not melt down over something that happened with full consent, disclosure and trust. If you can't do that, or if your partner can't do that - it might be a show stopper. Personally I couldn't handle being married to someone who couldn't separate that stuff out. Having Aspergers - I do stupid shit daily. Once I figure out where a line is - I know and I can avoid doing it again - but if Nikki couldn't get her head around the first time it happened - it was because I thought it was all good, talk it out and move on, she'd have dumped my ass inside a week of living with me.

    Being emotionally retarded can be a plus.

    Honestly? I've never met anyone with a vagina so magical that they could make me fall in love just by letting me use it a few times. I've met a few that made me stupid. But love? What sort of shallow ass stupid sort of love are you falling into because of sex? Do you really want to be with someone (who's not obscenely wealthy) who falls into and out of love based on pure pysical intimacy? Surely that jerk is destined to move on even if you don't agree to some kind of negotiated sexual model.

    Wow, so the difference between your girlfriend and any other girl is just... your girlfriend happens to be the only one who you've stuck your dick in recently? I know I've got a condition that makes emotions difficult to understand - but I'm pretty sure that at least notionally, there should be a slightly wider range of emotions around your girlfriend or spouse than there are with a regular fuck buddy.
     
  17. Disgustipated

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    How important do you think quantum is then? I would imagine that if both parties are agreeable to this "negotiated infidelity" thing, and the woman suddenly starts getting a ton of ass to a few stragglers for the guy (or vice versa), then it's going to fall over very quickly.

    Or do you think that would be a case simply of the aggrieved person having suppressed misgivings about the whole thing?

    I've never been in the situation, so I would wonder if I would feel differently about my girl hooking up with another person depending on whether I'm getting it on with a girl at the time or not.
     
  18. scootah

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    This depends on the dynamic and the kink I think. I know people who do this sort of thing looking for EXACTLY that dynamic. He's a voyeur or he's into humiliation or he's got some bisexual proclivities that he hasn't come to terms with and he gets off on watching his wife with guys. Some guys I know 'get off' - on being kept in chastity devices while they watch this shit - which is to say they don't get off, and that combined with the show fills the need somehow.

    While dynamics where one partner enjoys not getting play, or enjoys fucking only or primarily their partner while their partner fucks a bunch of other people, are more common than you'd expect - they're certainly not the norm or the average. Most people I think want a negotiated dynamic to feel 'fair' - so that both of them are getting what they want and what they need. I don't think it can work without the primary partners involved both getting a reward (like a huge orgasm) from the play.

    That certainly happens - and if someone goes into it with misgivings and then sits there not getting any reward for doing something against their better judgement while their partner gets all kinds of awesome - it's going to turn pear shaped. Fundamentally - we respond to reinforcement, so some reinforcement needs to be positive for it to be workable. But I think it's easy to get hung up on a single idea of what positive reinforcement is. People are complex - and sometimes the positive reinforcement is not having so much pressure to perform. Sometimes the positive is getting to watch. Sometimes the positive is getting your dick sucked. Sometimes the positive is being able to wear her panties while she's off fucking other guys.

    People are complicated and weird - and there's usually nothing wrong with that. We spend a lot of time forcing normative ideas on ourselves and rejecting people who don't conform to our existing normative preconceptions - but a lot of times the weird and complicated shit we reject isn't weirder or more complicated than the norms - it's just different and there's no real reason to think it's bad - even though we usually do because it's different.
     
  19. WickedBitch

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    Am I to assume that you don't at least exchange pleasantries with whomever you're screwing? Let's say you hook up with the same person once a week for 6 months and maybe one day you meet at a bar for a couple of drinks before going to get it on. You get to talking, go do the deed and the next day you're thinking "He really "gets" me." Or "We have so much in common!" Or "Why doesn't Bob look at me like that anymore?" Or "That was such a nice thing Jill said." Then you get to thinking about them more frequently and at odd times, hoping that time goes fast until you see them again and before you know it...

    I should have been more specific. I wasn't meaning "fall in love" right away. I'm talking about a long-term dalliance with the same person that eventually evolves into more.

    And did you just call me emotionally retarded?!
     
  20. scootah

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    More Viking33 than you. In retrospect I probably could have phrased a fair bit of that first post to be less confrontational. I am kind of a dick.

    It's not that I disagree that that could happen. I mean sure, I agree that letting your partner go out and fuck a few people might increase the chances that they'll realise that they're not happy and want to move on and maybe you could reduce the chances of that happening and them staying in a relationship with you by not negotiating that sort of physical experimentation. But you know how else you could keep them with you? By breaking their legs and cuffing them to a radiator in the basement!

    I just think falling into or out of love happens independant of who you are and aren't allowed to fuck. And I'm not sure I'd want to be in a relationship with someone who fell out of love with me because they were fucking someone else. If they were unhappy with me and happy with someone else? I wouldn't want to keep them trapped and miserable any more than I'd want to be trapped and Miserable. I'm also not sure that a healthy relationship is necessarily damaged because one of you also loves someone else. I know that will depend on the personalities involved - but I think the idea that you can only romantically love one person and you have to stop loving that person to love someone else doesn't make a lot of sense. You love your kids and your family and your friends, but if one person who's a really good friend gets bumped to romantic interest, you stop loving the last romantic interest? What?