Amen. I think that pretty much sums up the difference between a guy and a man. The guys this woman is complaining about are the breed who are perfectly content doing what they've always done not because it's satisfying but because they don't know what else to do. I think about all the deep threads on the RMMB about passion and finding what you want in life. There were always so many guys (and girls for that matter) who were so lost and doing things either out of fear of a challenge or because it's what society dictated. It's a shame really. But men are just different. They can certainly play all the video games they want and watch as many sporting events that ESPN can broadcast. They can bang who they want and don't necessarily have to want to get married or have kids. The difference is, a man is someone who knows what they want, takes care of whatever responsibilities they have, and makes no apologies for it. Knowing who you are and what you want is the key to all of this, in my humble opinion. It's funny because I just had this conversation with my whateverheis over the weekend. And while his job isn't corporate, he doesn't want kids, doesn't want to get married, loves to follow his jam bands, enjoys playing with his dog, smoking pot, banging 22 year olds, and drinking copious amounts of alcohol until the wee hours of the morning, wears his broken in hats that are ten years old, I still find him to be more of a man than most of my married male friends. Why? Because he's honest. He knows what he's capable of doing and giving. He knows what his passions are. He respects women (especially me). And I have way more respect for him and his lifestyle than my friends with four kids who cheat on their wives every chance they get and only got married because it was "time to grow up." You haven't grown up, you've sold out and now you're miserable for it. Not very manly. This chick just needs to get over the bitterness and get herself together. While she has a bit of a point, I think just whining about shit and blaming "Friends" and "Seinfeld" isn't the most convincing way to go. Instead, I wish she explored the ever-growing emasculation of men in today's society as one of the reasons for the growing trend of men not having a real direction in life and therefore staying the post-college course. We've stripped them of their identity, broken them down, told them they are either bad (oooh, vile white male!) or unnecessary. And then we complain when they don't know how to be or what it means to be a man. Perhaps she should direct men to their "man-caves" so they can have "man-dates" with their "bromance" partners. The fact that any of those terms exist validates any contention that yeah, men might be having a bit of an identity crisis. Sadly we only have ourselves to blame.
Women do just as much of that shit. It's just when women obsess with toys and childhood memorabilia its 'cute'. When a guy does it it's a refusal to be a man. Fuck that.
This is the problem. People's opinion of mature is entirely subjective. My ex thinks I'm still "a fuckin boy" while the girl I'm currently dating thinks I'm one of the most mature men she's ever met. This is despite the fact I've only gone through very very minute changes within the past two years since I've dated both of them. Focus: I think the article is dubious at best. Without a clear cut definition (which there never will be) of "a good man" there is no point in arguing any of this. I've got a kid, a nice truck, and my own place. Despite that I still do plenty of childish things. What's to say any of those things I mentioned even make me a man? Edit: Fuck that. You know who I blame? Absent fathers. Pieces of shit who either don't take the time to teach their kids, take them to a game, instill good morals or just ran out all together. A woman can take care of young boy, but she cannot make him a man. He will only learn to be a man in the presence of other men. While I think women deserve some blame, the vast majority of blame lies with non-existent positive male role models. While I want to fault the individual, one has to wonder how the individual would come to enlightenment if he is ignorant of this issue to begin with. Edit 2: Normally I'm averse to quoting the Bible however it does contain one of my favorite quotes which I think applies here: Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
Socrates was sentenced to death for being a smartass and "corrupting the youth." Roman philosophers ranted about the shittyness of the younger generation. The lost generation and beatnicks weren't exactly highly regarded by their contemporaries. We of TiB guard tight the smoldering coals of hippy-hating. She's making the drearily average mistake of assuming things were better in the old days. Bearing that in mind: Pierre Trudeau reflecting my views on common standards of maturity: Spoiler Joan Jett reflecting my views on people telling me (OK, my demographic) how to be: Spoiler Clint Eastwood reflecting my feelings about sociology: Spoiler People have always, ALWAYS, sucked. Except the few who don't. We remember those ones and talk about them later which is why historical settings look good to unperceptive people.
This article really confuses me. The author is arguing that more men should 'be men' by settling down and having kids right? Out of all the members of this board, I assume almost everyone is familiar with the general population, e.g. 'humans'. How could any person who has interacted with other people hold the position that more people should settle down and reproduce? Does anyone on this board think this? Hell, does anyone you know think this? Maybe I am over-simplifying. Maybe I missed the point entirely.
That might have had something to do with political infighting and engorging itself on new territory. Just sayin, it wasn't all because of those meddling kids.
I think she arguing that more men should "be men" by having the characteristic that she's looking for in "a man". Fuck her.
Reminds me of a jack donaghy quote which roughly goes like "The first generation [of immigrants] work from the bottom, clawing their way through poverty for the sake of their children. So, the second generation become great scholars and innovators. Then the third generation snowboards and takes improv classes." Coming off of the remark about the situation today being the payoff of societal change from half a century ago: All this prosperity and freedom is going to be the end of us, I swear. The rapid advancement of women's place in western society, while hugely positive and has allowed individuals to be rid of traditional constraints (birth control, financial independence), has resulted in a slump decline in fertility rates on a large scale. Someone mentioned he doesn't want kids because population is rising exponentially already - 9 billion by 2050 apparently.. only that growth will almost exclusively be coming from backwards, poor regions of the world where women and minorities are still hugely oppressed. Demographics like that mean the people inheriting our liberties and wealth will slowly be bred out by masses of oppressed hungry poor people. It's all well and good that for the first time in history such a large amount of us as a society , relatively and absolutely, have the means and the rights to choose what to do with our lives, but it can't last for long at the rate we're going. Wait, that was funnier in my head.
The Bullshit and pretty lies peddled by the likes of Hymowitz is why I read <a class="postlink" href="http://roissy.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/emotional-pornography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://roissy.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/ ... rnography/</a>
Speaking of horseshit... Aside from the fact that you really need to learn how to spell, punctuate and write (for Christ's sake, learn how to use your/you're, and "alot" is not a friggin' word), I don't even know where to start with this. You know... In your first post you state that a man is measured by his net worth and what he does for a living. I think that says it all, and makes you just as bad as the idiot in the original article. Both of your posts come off like you think you're better than everyone around you because you worked hard and earned a bunch of money. Yet there are so many contradictions. You say "by the time your [sic] 30 your youth is gone" yet you're spending your 20s working overtime and tied down with a house. That's your choice, but I could just as easily say, you're the one missing out on your 20s. In my 20s, I've moved twice, gotten a college education, taken trips to Bermuda, Costa Rica, Galapagos, several trips in the country, and I'll be headed to Peru in the fall. I work minimal overtime and spend a lot of time riding my bike, pursuing my hobbies and enjoying my life. You spent your teens working 60 hours a week in the summer. I spent my teens building experiences and memories with my friends. Look, I don't care how anyone wants to choose to live their life, but I do think intimating that those who don't spend their lives pursuing the almighty dollar and a lucrative/respectable career are not measured as real men is asinine. And this is coming from someone who has a fair amount of money and a lucrative/respectable career.
This has been on my mind recently because of my BFF's boyfriend. He strongly believes that, as a smart person, it's his personal duty to reproduce more than enough to replace himself so that there will still be smart people on the planet. It's the ultimate in elitism, really. The plebes are fucking things up, but I'm superior and I'd better have progeny to ensure that there's still someone around to make sure things work. I can't decide if he's right or if the smarminess of the whole thing makes me want to hurl. And then I look here. By any measure (intelligence, wealth, social involvement, leadership potential), what we have here is a particularly sarcastic subset of the elite BFF's boyfriend considers himself part of. If you went by his logic, pretty much everyone on this board should be the ones reproducing, rather than the go-nowhere mouthbreathers we all know/have heard of. But because we're so fucking smart, we actually think about what reproducing would do to our lives. We stop and think about the time, resources, and opportunity cost involved. And once you start thinking about how bad of an idea it seems, well... see BFF's BF fears about the world going to hell in a handbasket. No conclusions here, just food for thought.
On the topic of the ambiguity of "maturity", jordan_paul very could be right in that a lot of people DO measure maturity at least as a relative of income and the job they do: many on this board has stated that a man shouldn't be living with his parents. jordan_paul takes it a "little" bit further and states he is saving for retirement. To many people in the world, he actually would be hailed as more "mature" than the average 20 year-old because he is not only taking care of himself now, but his old self as well. As people we automatically assume some actions as more mature than others. I do not agree with the author but what people think of you could have unintended consequences even if these "childish" actions have no relationship with maturity at all: -Skateboarding(Would you hire someone for SR position who used it as a form of transportation? This is related to having a facebook picture holding alcohol) -As we saw in the online dating profiles: video games and "being the nerd you are" is a big no-no. -Living with roommates (This is turnoff to women who want a "serious" man) -Texting while in a face to face conversation(Harry Coolahan pointed this out in another thread: to youth this is acceptable while to "older" folk this is rude and disrespectful) -Using smileys, bad grammar, or "lol" (especially on TIB)
I might as well weigh in, although with seven pages of similar points I don't know how original my perspective will be: 1. I agree with Guy Fawkes; although the article is poorly written, poorly researched and trite the underlying point is somewhat valid. Men do have a tendency to wait longer before they saddle themselves down with responsibility, and while they are in this 'waiting' period some of them have adolescent tendencies. What alarms me is the vitriol so many TiB'ers have expressed regarding the woman's gender and her perspective. Her life goals involve finding a partner and having children, and for that (and for writing so shitty) her looks, affect and entire argument is thrown under the bus. Someone posted that he wondered if she'd be so viciously attacked if the same article was written under the name of a man with a picture of, say, an older gentleman looking sternly at the viewer at the top. 2. I cannot for the life of me believe I'm going to type these words, but [heavy sigh] here goes: to a degree, I think jordan_paul has the right idea. I fail to see why spending the majority of your teenage years and twenties "finding yourself" and making friends and screwing around is somehow better than buckling down and working. When you know the joys of compound interest and the difference ten years can make on RRSPs and investments, I think his reasoning is bang on. Push comes to shove and he realizes he "wasted" his youth, he can rent out his paid-for investment properties, backpack through Southeast Asia and come home to no debt and someplace nice to live after a few years. Why is a work ethic in someone so young being chastised? 3. It's tax time, which means dozens and dozens of articles about how we (as Canadians) are in debt up to our eyeballs and not saving properly. Somewhere along the way - for both men and women - the notion of hard work and delayed gratification has been lost. We want everything right now, and if we can't have it then Visa or Mastercard will help out. Perhaps this is due in a small part to being irresponsible? To having an extended youth where we had heaps of disposable income available to us and no financial responsibilities to tie us down? Like tweety bird, no conclusions here...just my thoughts.
It's not to be chastised. But it's also not to be assumed to be superior to all other choices of heading through life and I felt his post reeked of elitism. I don't feel that those who choose a nomadic or laid back existence in their young and fit years is something to criticize. It's just a choice, no different from choosing to not get married or not have kids. I also find some of the contradictions in his posts to be bizarre. You're not young and fit anymore when you hit 30? Yet your teens and twenties should be spent working overtime, purchasing houses and cars, and socking away every spare penny? I don't understand how you reconcile those two things. My point is just that assuming someone should spend all of their young life saving money so they can enjoy compound interest and early retirement is no different from assuming someone should get married at 22 and be popping out kids by 24. Everyone has a different view on life and has a different set of priorities that make them happy. I have a buddy who works a crappy job and spends his money and time racing his downhill bike. It's what he loves. He won't be able to race forever, so he's spending the young years racing while he can. Who are you, or jordan_paul, to say that he's more or less of a man than someone who buckled down and worked hard for money? He's got a great girlfriend who he lives with, he pays his bills, why is he to be looked down upon because money and career isn't his priority?
<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy</a> (I'd post the first 5 minutes, which are particularly relevant, but YouTube is blocked on this computer)
And why is not doing so somehow better? For a lot of people, doing this kind of thing at that age is just about the only opportunity they will have to do that. If they get married and have kids, you're options go out the window. I'm a huge proponent of going and having fun and doing shit when you're young. No, wait... I'm a huge proponent of doing shit and having fun AT ANY TIME IN YOUR LIFE. But for most, it's easier to do when you're young and have relatively few responsibilities. I have a lot of friends and family members who "wasted" their youth in such a manner, and none of them have any regrets doing so. By the same token, I also have some friends that worked hard and did the "responsible" thing as a kid, and regret it. Maybe somewhat related, I highly recommend you watch this: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.ted.com/talks/stefan_sagmeister_the_power_of_time_off.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ted.com/talks/stefan_sagmeis ... e_off.html</a>
Having a marriage is a responisibility. Having kids is a responsibility. If you're not ready for either, why on earth would you take either on? Life isn't figure skating or competitive masturbating; you don't get extra points for degree of difficulty. If you're taking care of yourself, and aren't burdening others, do what you want. It's your life, and authority over your personhood is the most sacred of human rights. Roissy is a racist misogynist who isn't nearly as clever or good a writer as he thinks he is. What he writes is way worse than anything purported in the article, and more regressive to boot. He would be (and is, often) torn to shreds by anybody with an intellectual vigor that goes beyond "well this seems true."
I've never been able to take Roissy seriously, just because of the mental associations with 'The Story of O'... but that's probably more my issue than anyone elses. [ Clarisse Thorn posted a fucking great article on Alternet and the ongoing discussions on her blog have now generated an almost biblical length discussion. I generally like her stuff a lot and can read her posts without wanting to punch her in the fucking face. She reminds me that feminists are awesome when they actually get the point of their own fucking argument.