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Friday Sober Thread: Women in Combat

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dcc001, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. fertuska

    fertuska
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    Omegaham is correct - change rarely comes from the top of within. I assure you a bunch of old white powerful doctors were flipping their shit when black people and women could join their profession. People are still flipping out about gay teachers, and in many states being transgendered is not covered under the "will not discriminate against you on the basis of your sexual orientation", and they can be fired just for who they are.

    Now as to whether it is a change for the better, that is what we are trying to debate here.

    Well, she can just put them on her head then, and still have her hands free to chase the enemy with a broom and beat them with it.

    Come on, I can be stupid all day long, we've already established there are physical differences between men and women and that those positions that have strict physical requirements should only be filled by people who can fulfill those requirements.
     

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  2. shimmered

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    People who have sole / primary custody of their kids would be the last drafted, male or female.
     
  3. StayFrosty

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    I think they're still above family members of politicians on the list.
     
  4. Cult

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    I agree with this wholeheartedly, granted many of the people who support women in infantry jobs are just saying that they think women who can meet the standard should be able to enter that MOS, which at its core concept I agree with. The problem with these people is they say "oh there are no frontlines" and "oh women have been in combat for the last 10 years" but they don't have any clue what kind of combat these women have seen and how it differs vastly from what people in the infantry do. The actions of women in these last two wars, while in many cases gallant and brave are not indicative of their ability to perform as a member of the infantry.

    However, even if a woman can meet the physical standard won't change the culture of the infantry nor does it address the logistical issues of having to provide separate facilities for women. Now, if we want to go all Starship Troopers and have men and women living, shitting, showering and doing everything together the same as men that solves a lot of those issues, and frankly any woman who isn't comfortable doing all those things with men probably shouldn't be in that position. The problem is when you have people like audreymonroe (I don't really like calling people out individually but what she said is a perfect example) saying we should fire the men who can't adapt and not look at their female counterparts sexually or look down on them because they are women... that is exactly the attitude that will completely destroy unit cohesiveness. That doesn't make it right for the men to do that, but the hyper-masculine culture of the infantry will not change (and shouldn't) for the handful of women who can hack it physically. You can argue for all-woman infantry units but good luck finding enough women to fill those positions, Israel can't even do it and they are a country surrounded by enemies and require national service.
     
  5. Cult

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    Really? How do you not know that this is a thing? Are you in denial that women are physically weaker than men as a whole? Here you go. Note that while it isn't the most recent study it is the one that sums up the differences most simplistically unless you want me to link dozens of articles that use more specific examples of strength comparison between the genders.

    Snatch and clean and jerk records (heh) for men and women. Notice how the men perform better than women who are 20kgs out of their weight classes
    Mens deadlift, squat and bench press records by age and weight class vs womens records by age and weight class. Again, notice how men perform at the level of women way out of their weight class. That's how the human body works. Granted, powerlifting records have little bearing to whether to the actual focus of the thread, but it really isn't possible to show the strength differences between men and women in a way that is as well documented and more relevant.
     
  6. Trakiel

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    Ok, I know this was posted a couple of pages back but I have to comment on this. And I apologize in advance that what I have to say may piss some of you off, but I have to ask: What the fuck is the army doing? I worked ordinance in the USAF, and nobody humped bombs the way you're describing; we had things like forklifts and other specialized equimpent to move the heavy shit around - even in forward deployed locations. The most that got manually humped was ordinance like AIM-9s, which weigh 188 pounds - and that was a 3-man job. If the duty NCO or crew chief caught a couple of knuckleheads trying to he-man a MK82 around they'd probably get their asses chewed out and/or laughed at. For the sake of avoiding an inter-service flamewar, I won't mention the opinions a lot of the airmen who worked with army ordinance soldiers had on them.

    To be perfectly honest, from reading what you posted above and a lot of other things in this thread (and elsewhere), it almost seems like the army has a willfully obtuse macho culture that a lot of soldiers are desperate to cling on to even at the expense of mission efficiency and effectiveness. Or to put it more bluntly and to put it into the context above, if you had a 2000 pound MK84 that needed to be loaded onto a trailer, army ordinance would deliberately forgo using the forklift next to the trailer and instead manually muscle it up - and spend more time to do so - just so they could feel like tough guys.
     
  7. Omegaham

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    Marine Corps here, but yeah, they're not exactly the brightest bulbs on the tree. They were definitely lifting heavy shit the few times that I was over there. I think part of it is lack of funding, and part of it is "Hurr durr why do we need machines when we have Marines, oorah?"

    They did have forklifts and the like, but that was only for the really heavy shit.
     
  8. bewildered

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    Yup, the USMC is the most underfunded branch. They don't get the equipment for a lot of things that is a no brainer for other branches. If you don't have much to do during the day, chances are you are doing lawn work. I was amazed when I drove through the army airfield near me and they actually had hired maintenance workers mowing the lawn and edging the sidewalks. Mind boggling.
     
  9. Omegaham

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    And if you talk to any SNCO, they're proud of this. "We're poor as fuck, and we LIKE IT that way." I don't know why anyone would be proud of being the stinky children of the US military, but we manage to do it.
     
  10. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Mantis Toboggan M.D.
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    I propose a compromise: For the 2013 season the US Military Academy, US Naval Academy, and US Air Force Academy football teams must play with at least two female players on the field at all times. If women truly can handle front-line combat, then football should be no problem at all.
     
  11. fertuska

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    That's not even a challenge. One female takes her top off, all guys stare/try to rape her/start fighting to get her attention. Other female takes the ball and runs.

    Nice try Mantis.
     
  12. Cult

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    Fucking weapons troop.

    Or were you ammo? Even worse.

    Just kidding. But seriously...
     
  13. Trakiel

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    Call me Caitlyn. Got any cake?

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    Yes, I was ammo.

    IYAAYAS
     
  14. Omegaham

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    "Yep, you're Ordnance. And yes, you're shit."
     
  15. Bundy Bear

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    [​IMG]
     
  16. erk33

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    I worked directly with our FET more times than I would have liked to on our last deployment. They're pretty fucking useless to be honest. I know for a fact that one of them could carry my load (traditional fighting load + radio, batteries, CLS bag), let alone humping a SAW, 240, or any of the various SMAW's and other TLA weapons.

    If the government does this the right way, by that I mean not lowering the standards one fucking centimeter so some women can play GI Jane, then I'd have no issue with it. I'm not worried about any female dying in a combat zone, I'm worried about the Marines, Docs, and soldiers (male or female) that die due to their lack of basic abilities.
     
  17. erk33

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    Sorry, typo.