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Friday Sober Thread: Tragedy in Connecticut

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by shimmered, Dec 14, 2012.

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  1. Binary

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    You're right. That's exactly what I said. I very clearly stated that Mexicans were worthless.

    As a matter of fact, I think that's what Dcc meant with her post. She was stating that only Americans have any value as people, and that's why this type of event only happens in the US. Since all other people are expendable, by definition their shootings are not like this one.

    I honestly think the media coverage is part of it. 25 years ago, it was harder for some disturbed person to send an instant, nation-wide message. Now there's an absolute explosion of coverage as it happens and after it happens, with a fixation for months after the fact.
     
  2. NotaPharmacist

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    By the way, L.A. Times just ran a story on a Chinese guy knifing 22 kids and notes previous spates of similar attacks: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214,0,6383015.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.latimes.com/news/world/world ... 3015.story</a>

    That's not to say that I think that guns/knives/whatever should be banned. I just don't think foreign events stick in most people's memory for all that long, if they hear about them at all.
     
  3. NotaPharmacist

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    Um: <a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#History_of_School_Shootings_in_the_United_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_sho ... ted_States</a>
     
  4. Kubla Kahn

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    I really think he meant mass random shootings which the majority of those in that list before say 1999 are not. What is motivating clearly insane individuals (see Arizona, Aurora, Vtech etc) to commit large scale massacres like this?
     
  5. lhprop1

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    Yes. Mass random shootings are exactly what I meant. It is interesting to read the stories behind some of those really old shootings, though. A lot of them involved a dispute over a cow or someone dishonoring their wife/sister/family member or something.
     
  6. D26

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    I know everyone wants to be glued to the news, but honestly right now one of the best things to do is to turn the news off. A lot of the information coming out this soon is either speculation or bullshit anyway, so it is better to wait until most of the news is in. Besides that, the news and media attention contributes to the psychopaths who want to commit these crimes for the attention.
     
  7. Psychodyne

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    You know what happened today? Something fucking awful. You know why it happened? Yeah...me either.

    I don't know why this dude did what he did. And I don't know everything involved that might have enabled him to do it. I do know that a lot of people are going to start telling me, though. At least, they'll be telling me why they think he did it. Some will say it was the guns. Americans love them some guns and that's why they shoot each other up all the time, right? Some will say it certainly wasn't the guns, was never the guns, and to blame the tools people use to do atrocious shit is silly. And, for the most part, none of those people will budge on their views, and will use a piss-ton of confirmation bias to argue them.

    This isn't a cookie cutter situation. None of them are. All people are different and do shit for different reasons. What they use to do them with, or have available to them, may or may not have any impact on the actual act. So the same things that caused/enabled/etc one, are probably not the exact same as the other. Maybe we shouldn't bait each other and jump down each other's throats?

    I'm more interested in what Shimmered said in the first post. Why? Why do people do this? If a person is going to off themselves, fine. Sucky but fine. Why shoot up a school to do it? Is it part of what Binary said...media coverage? Do people want to send a message before they go? Did they lack attention in childhood and want as much attention as possible before punching out? Is it a societal thing? Are we not properly raising our kids and teaching them proper coping skills? Would it be possible to trace it back to one or a couple things? I doubt it, but...fuck.

    I do, however, know I'm already sick of the media coverage. As in it fucking disgusts me.
     
  8. Nom Chompsky

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    Yeah, to be honest, it's kind of a tough decision for me. I think it seems weird not to allow people to talk about something that's obviously on their minds, but the possibility for clusterfuck seems pretty high.

    I guess just be reasonable adults, and if it turns awful, I'll just lock the thread and shelve the discussion.

    Other moderators may disagree though.
     
  9. MoreCowbell

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    Well, good thing Mike Huckabee has chimed in:

     
  10. Nicole

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    Thanks. I didn't mean to suggest people weren't going to be adults, or that any moderator here isn't doing a good job, I just imagine it's hard to be here to constantly monitor traffic. I need an outlet for discussion as much as the next person. Cancelled plans with a girlfriend tonight, my heart is broken over this tragedy, and I"m just wallowing. I keep thinking about the news unfolding, and how there'll be photos of the dead, and it'll be photos of beautiful smiling children.
     
  11. CharlesJohnson

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    This isn't about media saturation, cultural violence, entertainment, or gun control. None of those things correlate to the inherent nature of this man. Point is, he was sick. Sick in ways most people can't, or won't, comprehend. A creature like this is so completely foreign to us. If he didn't have a gun, he'd find another way, I have not one doubt. I'd be surprised if the man himself could articulate the impetus for his rage, why he sought out children to exact some kind of reckoning for his problems.

    No, what is going on is we have a very large nation with a woefully pitiful mental health infrastructure. Laws we do have are vague and inadequate in most cases. Institutions are underfunded, understaffed, and the mental health professionals, especially those with the right pedigree, are underpaid or not even solicited for these jobs.

    There is no way to reconcile my feelings on this. Spree shootings will continue. The only thing we can do is persevere.
     
  12. Arctic_Scrap

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    Such a terrible event, and why kids? I don't understand that at all.
    On another forum I visit there's people trying to say that the mall and school shootings that have happened recently are due to the states being liberal. Amazing.
     
  13. Nitwit

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    It wasn't just any kids. It was his mother's students, specifically, wasn't it?

    So sad. So many lives. Even the survivors have been changed forever.

    I thought of this song and remember how disturbing this video was to me all those years ago.

     
    #33 Nitwit, Dec 14, 2012
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  14. Juice

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    Friends mom is doing well, she had been shot in the leg and is one of the 3 survivors in the hospital. She just got out of surgery and is recovering.

    Thanks for the kind PMs everyone.





    I need a drink.
     
  15. Crown Royal

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    I have yet to see my daughter today (at my parent's place until later) and my hands are shaking from it. I guess I shouldn't feel like that, but it just reminds of of how any of us-- no matter HOW innocent-- are vulnerable at any time.

    Juice, talk to us if you need us. Hell, ANY of you. This goes far beyond the realms of sick that I could ever imagine. A fucking red
     
  16. mya

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    Serious question since DCC brought up the comment that these types of mass shootings seems to be more prevalent in America, how is mental health handled in other countries? It is woefully underfunded here, and people have very few resources, even if you see somebody who you suspect is mentally ill, there are very few places to send them. How is this handled elsewhere? Obviously, this also brings up the question of gun control (yes, I will be the hated member who brings this up and fully expect the onslaught of GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE responses). Yes, there was also a tragedy in China, the difference is that there was less death. How can you not draw the parallel there?

    I am seriously not anti gun - but certainly wouldn't complain about stricter laws. How that would have helped in this case, maybe it wouldn't.

    juice - i am glad your friends mom is ok
     
  17. CharlesJohnson

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    Imagine you are Lanza. Put yourself in his perspective. You have a classroom of children hostage and you're shooting them one by one, between screams and cries and pleading, and some are running from you. Try very, very hard to imagine yourself doing these things. Now imagine you think you're doing them all a favor like Charles Whitman wrote of his mom after he shot her. Now imagine the kind of hate, loathing, for humans, beyond any of the misanthropic moanings we have on this board, but true disgust for a human and it's existence encroaching your world; it is nothing but a toy for you to do as you please. It's probably impossible. Is lack of a gun going to stop you? Machete attack? A bomb (that is very simple to make)? The course a man like this set himself upon is not defined by the medium of weapon. He is driven, merciless, convinced he has no other recourses. He is so deluded he is certain this is a mark for himself to be made, all for his own deranged ego.

    It makes no sense to penalize everyone else, to restrict them from access to self defense.

    However, our mental health laws and our gun laws need to compliment each other. They don't. Not in the slightest. I'm more concerned about an individual admitted under psychiatric care for violence than some punk dipshit prohibited from owning a gun after he got out of jail (besides, he only uses illegally obtained weapons anyway). Let's ban knives, gasoline, piano wire next. Guns are used because they are accessible. A sick person will use whatever they can. Denying them access to a gun will not prevent deaths, but the number of deaths, yes, definitely.

    This guy: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/world/americas/canada-killer-released/index.html?hpt=hp_t3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/world/ame ... ?hpt=hp_t3</a> he murdered his own kids. Stabbed them 20 times each. He also got off on insanity plea and is now free to go. Nothing would have stopped him from killing those children. Nothing except someone catching his mental deficiencies sooner. Knives were at his disposal so that's what he used.

    This is not a gun control argument. If anything, this is a mental health argument that happens to involve guns.

    Edit: Not trying to be morbid in the above, but I've been trying , and failing, to get in a creature like this' headspace. I cannot imagine how someone like this ticks or develops their perspective.
     
  18. Nitwit

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    I agree with your gun control statement.

    Gun technology to perform these acts has been around for many years, yet, these types of mass school shootings are relatively new.

    Isn't the mental health statement similar in that it focuses on curing the symptoms and not the cause?

    Have we, as a society, become enough eschewed or shifted away from quality core values, that the lowest level of our collective humanity is manifested with acts like this?
     
  19. mya

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    We can steer the conversation away from gun control, I started my comment about mental illness and the gun control thing was an aside. You folks love your guns and I won't argue that point. Probably a moot point in this case anyway.

    however, the mental health statement is the cause (I am speculating... of course with no knowledge of this guys mental status). If I was guessing, he is absolutely the right age and sex for onset of schizophrenia. That isn't something that can be explained away by society, poor parenting, over entitlement, core values, etc. Logic has no place in a discussion of a schizophrenic. Go back and read Nom's post about not understanding what was going on inside his head. Have you ever talked to a schizophrenic? I have and their world is not the same as ours. We can't understand it from our own framework. Who knows, maybe he thought that his mom was an alien being and he was compelled by his master to kill her and her subjects. I took care of a guy who was "told" by his brain that his arm was evil so he would have to get rid of it so he could regenerate a new one. He put his arm on a train track and so it would be cut off. After he was hospitalized (in ICU after his amputation) it was a battle to keep him from stuffing things up his stump bandage to assist with the regeneration of his new arm. He believed this stuff like I believe my own name. The way he talked about it was like a normal talks about what they had for lunch. How do you wrap your head around that?

    If you notice a common thread amongst these mass murderers, it is that people come out later and say that they knew they were mentally ill and didn't have a means of dealing with them. If we, as a society, as going to demand anything, it is that this is changed. That is why I was asking how other countries do deal with their mentally ill. Because we could sure use some help.
     
  20. Nitwit

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    It's way to early to diagnose what his actual mental illness was. (I will say that I think it may wind up being said that because he thought his mom loved her students more than she did him, he decided he would kill her, her students and then himself to even that score.)
     
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