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Frank and Jesse James

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrFrylock, Nov 18, 2010.

  1. DrFrylock

    DrFrylock
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    The White

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    Trust is a funny thing. If one person says something that's bullshit, then it's easy to dismiss, or at least be skeptical about it. But if two people do it, then it's much harder.

    An enterprising engineer looked at this particular facet of human behavior and instead of saying "huh, that's interesting" instead said "huh, how can I fully exploit this for my own gain?" He went on to create a new business, "Establishing Solutions", whom you can hire to back you up on any bullshit you want. Need to call in sick but need a doctor's note? They will impersonate a doctor for you. Need to "beef up" your resume? Done.

    FOCUS: When have you covered for a friend or acquaintance? Was it way out of your comfort zone to do so? Did you feel guilty for doing it? Did you get caught? Conversely, when has someone covered for you?

    ALT FOCUS: Discuss the ethical implications of such a service. Would you use it? Would you apply for a job there?
     
  2. cpt0

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    the people using this are the same kind of that think paying to get works, essays and other shits done by other(or *cough* essay wrting companies) is a simple and smart move that allows them to do what they like, instead of what they should be doing. Fuck responsability and this learning thing, i can pay someone else to do it.

    I despise them. They truly are a waste of oxygen.
     
  3. Fracas

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    Here's a well-written, somewhat infuriating article from an academic ghostwriter:

    http://chronicle.com/article/article-content/125329/

    I can't enjoy fucking hookers, and I wouldn't enjoy a job or degree I got by cutting a check. But I'm not absolutist about it.

    Personally I don't give a fuck if you cut some corners to get that philosophy doctorate that allows you to be the most obnoxious guy at the Carmike concession stand. I'd like to think that, in the end, pursuing a passion is its own reward and being a half-assed liar is its own punishment, but the world is not a fair place, and sometimes evolution means broadening the rules. I respect people with a talent for finding glitches in the matrix, particularly when they empower the afflicted. Also, Anne Frank would have been safe with me. (No chomo.)

    But spoiled retards performing open-heart surgery because they scammed their way through the filter for status and a paycheck? There's no way I could ever be part of that problem.
     
  4. Bourbondownthehouse

    Bourbondownthehouse
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    Disturbed

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    I'm assuming your in some sort of school an that you think your better than everyone else. You're a fucking retard. Have you never heard the saying "work smart." I know I'll catch hell for this but the vast majority of any sort of "learning" you are currently doing is absolutely fucking useless. I once paid someone to write a paper on the life of Frederick Douglas. It was an A paper and only cost me twenty-five dollars. If I could cut a check to just have a university give me a degree I would.
     
  5. Devils Advocate

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    Seems like whatever school he attends isn't teaching him jack shit to begin with.
     
  6. Tyty

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    Right now I'm searching for a job. And though I have found it easy enough to get a few meaningless jobs that pay enough for me to survive, none of them are what I need to be doing to further my goal of being a doctor. One of the key things that medical schools look for is clinical experience, and getting this is extremely hard without knowing some people. Even the volunteer gigs are competitive to get into, just to push someone around a hospital in a wheelchair. I've asked all family friends that I could, scoured job sites, gone in person, done just about everything I can think of, but it is really tough to get experience without experience, as strange as that sounds.

    I'm honestly thinking about using this site so I can do something meaningful with my time. With a lot of the things that they provide I don't see much of an issue, being able to get your foot in the door with a job, start a lie with a significant other, or an excuse for missing a bit of work, all these things are helpful but in the end it is the individual who needs to live the lie. Living that lie is probably the hardest part. For me it would just be so that maybe I could interview for the position.
     
  7. cpt0

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    You assume wrong, as I have been to school, am working in the industry I studied for ( where further schooling/learning/reading is done every day and is directly applied to my work) and am generally a pretty humble guy in temperament.

    I'm against this behavior because it undermines everything that it means to be "qualified" for the job, because you did not do the work yourself. The end point of college/uni/whatever is not to have a piece of vellum paper with your name on it, it's to actually learn stuff. When you pay someone else to write those paper/essays/shiznitz, you basically fail yourself.
     
  8. Misanthropic

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    While our friend may type like he's missing his pinkies, I think he has a point.

    In regards to college, call me a purist, but the idea of those classes you take isn't necessarily to learn derivatives, the structure of a protein, the influences of ancient Greek colonies on their pottery styles, or why Jane Austen sucks. While each of these has merit in their own right, the goal is to train you to think.

    I know, thinking is hard. But, frighteningly enough, I actually get paid to think now. Using your brain can be lucrative.


    As for faking job experience and similar shenanigans, that is simply a bad idea all around. You are likely setting yourself up to fail in whatever job you are applying for, and wasting the time and money of the company that hired you. Trust me, if you faked your way into my line of work, you'd be gone shortly thereafter.

    Honestly, is it that hard to put in some effort, and, you know, maybe actually achieve something, rather than greasing palms and faking your way through life??
     
  9. Volo

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    Bourbondownthehouse, I'm curious to know what you do for a living.

    What side of the fence someone is on concerning this issue is likely going to be largely influenced by your career path and/or lifestyle.

    In my experience, those who chant the "work smarter, not harder" mantra are the people I try my best to avoid working alongside. There's a fair bit of truth to the phrase, but all too often I see it employed by those who simply wish to exploit the people around them and their surroundings.
     
  10. Bourbondownthehouse

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    I used the work smart not hard mantra in reference to writing papers for school. School is a means to an end to me, because I attend a huge degree mill where I will receive a BA in a social science. I know I come off as having a poor and lazy attitude, but when it comes to things that matter (to me) I don't take the same approach. You are a chef correct? Had you fucked around and slacked off in culinary school, you could very well be a shitty chef. The same logic doesn't apply to all types of education. I used the example of a history paper I had to write. Unless I become a historian, will the fact I never wrote that paper affect my performance in any career? In my opinion it won't.

    EDIT: So basically you're right. It's a stupid argument to make because everyone's experience with education and later work varies.
     
  11. Disgustipated

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    Obviously my personal opinion here, but I think only a small part of higher learning is actually about learning the matter of a subject. Especially in certain highly specialised field, what you learn today could be obsolete tomorrow. Instead, you're learning method and manner. The study is teaching you how to think, reason and research in the appropriate way to be able to perform in the real world.

    The essay topic may be bullshit, but the methodology behind it is not. Shortcutting that gets you nothing and devalues the degree/other piece of paper.
     
  12. Frank

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    Heh, I'm on Bourbon's side on this one. I work in a technical field that requires me to pass a ridiculous set of exams so I can sign pieces of paper I don't have time to review that were processed by people who have passed less exams than me. The funny thing is that an FSA fresh out of college will make more than a guy with five years of experience and four exams under his belt, even though the latter is by far the better actuary.

    Like most things in life the academic requirements in my field really do very little to prepare you for the actual job and you'll be the much better and more complete worker with more experience and less education. If I could pay someone to take the exams on my behalf I'd do it in a heartbeat, and wouldn't be any worse of an employee.

    This is a very good point, but in my field you get more of the underlining reasoning by just doing the work and keeping your ears and eyes open.
     
  13. Supertramp

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    It's all about method and manner, unfortunately it's a very long-winded, brutal and boring lesson. There is a huge disconnect between the romantic ideal of an institute of higher learning and what actually happens in school, for instance: there are crash courses for Engineering/Science classes that just teach you the bare minimum actual knowledge required to fully pass the course. In Engineering, it's not like it's a theoretical "Child Psych 301" class, it's Engineering Physics.

    Y'know what though? Until they fix the system, I'll abuse it how I see fit. Life is too short* to worry about grades, especially if you can attain those grades with very little work. Sounds unfair but you only live for ~80 years and by college 1/4 of it is already gone with very little to show for it.

    Also, if I can get the occasional doc note and get away with it, why not?

    *To wit: I was a walking zombie for the past two weeks, I have a rather interesting bone tumor in my femur which was only found two Fridays ago. They think it's 99% benign and 1% what-the-fuck, as it's one of the rarest tumors possible. 1 in 15 million was the number I heard. Biopsy pending my next batch of CT/Xray/Bone scans. Really puts into scale the frailty of life and the uselessness of cramming for shitty midterms.
     
  14. Disgustipated

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    Let me put out a philosophical question then:

    I know that's an extreme example and doesn't cater for a whole raft of things (like hiring contractors and consultants), it's a philosophical question for fuck's sake.

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when I want to rely on someone's qualification or position, I want to be able to rely on it. When these sorts of practices happen, the integrity of something gets diluted. At what point do they become completely worthless?
     
  15. cpt0

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    We had people do that around here. The result of people cutting corners on construction/engineering/inspection was : Overpass collapsing in the middle of traffic ( with casualty).
     
  16. Supertramp

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    It's like someone, like me, spitting philosophical questions in the Wikileaks thread. I know you're ultimately you're right, it's better to get the the engineer who got his degree legitimately, no questions asked, but we're not in the plane of Plato and Spinoza and the students, like the soldiers, are at the frontlines and they know better.

    In today's academic setting, in which I am ingrained, cheating is rampant -- dishonesty even more. There is no such thing as an encouraging, exciting class. Either they're Easy A's or they're cram-last-minute/take-a-crash-course classes.

    What's the point of a B of A? Most places don't hire you without one but it isn't really a degree anymore, too many people have it.

    The people who didn't cut any corners in University are idiots who I wouldn't want to design any bridge of mine... and the ones who did? They wouldn't cheat on a bridge because if they were smart enough to coast through university they're smart enough to know when to cheat and when to work.

    When is the last time anybody manually solved an integral outside of a calculus class room?
     
  17. scootah

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    If I have a choice of two engineers, one who was honest the whole way through and did everything by the book, and one of them paid someone to write his 6500 word Contract Administration paper for him, because he was busy busting his balls for a 98% in Structural Engineering 2 and Civil Engineering Construction - I'm not gonna hold it against him.
     
  18. Justadude

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    As bitter as this sounds. At the undergraduate level in the soft sciences cheating is rampant, so is the use of Adderall and its cousins (the equivalent of steroids in a college environment). We won't be building an bridges, or doing anything of the like without further training so screw it. BUT, if you go to grad school you will get fucked up the ass with a foot long dildo. I'm in my first semester at a top school and it is obvious who BSed their way in and who actually did the work.

    For the Rep comments, I don't give a fuck what you do. Undergrad is just a middle-class delay of life at this point.
     
  19. cpt0

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    Let's be realistic. The people that can afford this would be most likely be doing (instead of underlined) :
    Getting drunk
    Getting into someone else's pants
    Playing Videogames
     
  20. Bourbondownthehouse

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    Is there a god? I know its an extreme example. I sent in a PM: THIS DOES NOTS APPLY TO HARD SCIENCES.