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Feminism

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aetius, Feb 24, 2011.

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  1. Nom Chompsky

    Nom Chompsky
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    I should preface this with the fact that I only slept 3 hours last night and remedied that by getting drunk today, so my arguments might not be as lucid as I want.

    Whatever.

    Feminists are people like everybody else. Some people can be irrational, and no matter how clearly you present your argument to them, will insist that their schema is correct. Nobody like that on this board -- praise the heavens! -- but it can happen, especially in academia.

    That doesn't mean that feminism is useless.

    I believe that "woman" is a disadvantaged class. Just like "poor" is, "nonwhite" is, "trans" is, "disabled" is, etc. That doesn't meant that you should feel guilty about being white, or male, or that you're evil just because you were born with a penis.

    And no reasonable feminist thinks that you are.

    However, it does mean that sometimes, you have to consider your societal privilege. It means that you should think about the fact that you can be assertive without being a bitch. That you can have a career and a family without compromising. That your sexuality is relentlessly catered to in all forms of media, and that you never have to worry about your bodily autonomy being usurped by political discussion.

    Feminism means that you think about these things, and think about the real effect privilege has. It doesn't mean you have to hate men, it just means that you have to love humanity, and that sometimes that means thinking about gender. Don't strawman, er, strawPERSON feminists into those who are anti-science and think that anything male is negative. Don't be lazy -- engage with their arguments. You'll be a much better person for it.

    And for the love of god, don't admit to skimming a few online sources and then claim to speak for "most" feminists. Off the top of my head, a few good feminist bloggers to check out: Amanda Hess, Lindy West, Hugo Shwyzer, Jessica Valenti, Sady Doyle, Lesley Kinzel, etc.

    Don't skim: Read. Engage. Learn. You don't have to, but if you don't know what you're talking about, and have no real background, your views on this subject aren't really worthwhile.

    Final point: You might have noticed that basically everybody dismissing the importance of feminism as a movement has been guys. Consider what that means with respect to privilege. Seriously, just think about it.
     
  2. BL1Y

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    At my old work, several younger female associates complained that the firm had a boys club, which we called "The Frat."

    There were definitely a group of guys who hung out and worked together a lot. But, the allegation was that they only gave assignments to other guys, and only took male summer associates out for lunch on the firm dime.

    When asked "Who do you want to get work from, but haven't?" or "Who do you want to have lunch with, but won't invite you?" they were never able to come up with anyone. I pointed out that I hadn't gotten work or been to lunch with some of them. None of the evidence changed their opinion that the Frat was sexist and only out to help other guys. So, the girls formed The Sorority, openly admitted to favoring each other on assignments, and regularly arranged for all-girls' lunches and other events, claiming they had to do so in order to counteract the advantages the boys were getting.

    That's not pursuing fair play, but it is the type of thing that passes as feminism these days.
     
  3. Aetius

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    Not to single you out, but over time I've found that no one uses the "No true Scotsman" fallacy like feminists do.
     
  4. Nom Chompsky

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    I lied about that being the final point. Whoops.

    It seems like some people are confused as to what feminists are fighting for; after all, women are CEOs! They can vote! What's left?

    Changing the way people approach gender. How about women gamers not being harassed? How about female politicians not being judged on what they wear? How about women not being forced into oppressive physical archetypes that force them into expensive and time-consuming grooming regimens? How about victims of rape not being told that it's their fault? How about women not being treated like breeding livestock?

    We have had 0 female presidents. We have 17 female senators. There are 12 female fortune 500 CEOs.

    Which is it? Do women not want these jobs? Are they incapable?

    Or do we maybe have some goddamned work to do?

    Fair. I should say that I think that anybody who believes that your genitals are the sole and determining cause of your morality is inherently unreasonable. There are feminists (Aileen Wournos? Radical Primate? Factcheckme?) who I think come close to that, and I don't think they're reasonable, although they probably think the same of me.
     
  5. BL1Y

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    I get rather annoyed with these sorts of demands/goals/whatever. This is distinctly different from gender equality, which would say "How about women gamers only get harassed as much as male gamers? How about female politicians only be subject to the same type of scrutiny as men?..."

    But this is more like saying "How no woman ever be mistreated under any circumstance?" That's a noble enough goal, but it is a different goal than equality.
     
  6. TX.

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    I feel like this thread is pretty pointless. This topic evokes so much passion from both sides, and it's almost impossible for someone to change their views.

    I really don't appreciate a group of men claiming that women aren't treated differently because of gender. You have no idea until you've actually been a woman. I'm not insisting that black people feel completely equal today because I'm not black. I cannot view life and society from their perspective. You cannot view life/society from a woman's perspective. You have no idea what it's like, so don't say that you're viewing these situations from all perspectives.

    Do you trust a female surgeon to operate on you? Do you trust a female pilot to take your overseas? Can you at least admit that there are many people in this world who look at a woman and doubt her abilities/credentials just because of her gender, without her even opening her mouth to speak? I've experienced this dozens of times. It's even worse if you're an attractive woman. Patients call me "sweetie" and "honey" as they tell me crude jokes and make their treatment difficult just to frustrate me with some kind of power game. Do you think they'd pull that shit with a man?

    I don't believe women are "oppressed" in this country. But, we are definitely treated differently and have to prove ourselves even more than men do. Like someone mentioned in another post...we have to be pretty but not too pretty, smart but not too smart...if we're assertive we're bitchy. It goes on and on. If things were completely equal across the board it wouldn't be that way.
     
  7. MoreCowbell

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    I feel like you're misinterpreting what he's saying. What you're saying is really just a rephrasing of what Nom Chompsky meant.

    Obviously Nom isn't suggesting that women gamers are completely free from harassment in any possible world. What he is asked for is that women gamers as such are not harassed, and that woman politicians' wardrobe are as much of an issue as those of their male counterparts (which is to say almost a non-issue).

    To add to Nom Chompsky and TXBelle's posts, any serious engagement with this topic requires taking a long, hard look at privilege.

    You have to realize that, on a day to day basis, your treatment is affected by your gender. As I go about my business tomorrow, no one is going to accuse me of dressing like a slut. No one will catcall me as I walk down the street. When I do well in quantitative subjects, no one is surprised. I can go to most bars with the reasonable expectation that no one will grab my ass.

    Are these sorts of things worthy of moral outrages on the level of, say, genital mutilation? No. But are they worth serious consideration? yes. It's not like I have committed some sort of sin. It's not something I should feel guilty about. But it's worth spending some time thinking about how the other half lives.
     
  8. BL1Y

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    This is actually an invalid argument.

    Men can't know what it's like to be a woman.

    Why?

    Because you can't know what it's like to be someone different than yourself.

    You mean you can't know what it's like to be different than yourself.

    Yes, but you can't either.

    How do you know what I'm capable of imagining, or feeling, or knowing? By your own admission, you don't know that. You can't tell me what I can know.

    Yes I can. Fooey!

    All kidding aside, I honestly don't agree with your conclusion. Do I know what it's liked to be judged based on my tits? No, I don't have tits. But, do I know what it's liked to be judged based on my appearance? Sure, it happens to guys sometimes too. If I've been punched in the arm, I can imagine what it's like if you get punched in the leg. The causes and frequencies may be different, but I doubt when a woman feels shame, fear, regret, helplessness, embarrassment, anger, or any other emotion that it's all that different from my own emotional experiences.

    If you're too smart, you're a nerd, or an arrogant, condescending prick. If you're too assertive, you're a tyrant. If you're too pretty, you're Justin Bieber.
     
  9. PIMPTRESS

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    I think some people are always looking to be offended or singled out so as to be a victim. I realize that many women are oppressed in many ways, but in the end we have to be accountable to ourselves. If you don't like the way people treat you, it is time to change the way you treat people. This means a great many things, as every person is treated on an individual basis.

    I am drinking as well, so don't take my random thoughts too seriously.
     
  10. MoreCowbell

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    I see the appeal of this argument, and yeah, to a certain extent, it's true.

    On the other hand, you know what it's like to be judged on appearance intermittently and occasionally. That's not necessarily the same as knowing what it's like to live it day in, day out.

    To make an analogy: There's been times when I've had no money in my checking account. In fact, the day before I got my last paycheck, I had $5.62 in available funds. But do I know what it's like to truly be poor? To understand this as a daily experience? No. And it would be foolish of me to say that I did.

    Telling other people the facts of their own experience is always a pretty difficult tightrope to walk.
     
  11. KIMaster

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    I asked for it in the last topic, but I'd love see anyone provide some half-decent evidence for women supposedly being underemployed or payed less than men for the same work. Not purely anecdotal accounts, or a "it's common knowledge" retort, but real evidence. Like an SRS study controlling for educational background, years spent at the job, etc.

    Because everything I've seen in my life indicates it's quite equal.

    My friends and family received the same pay for the same work, regardless of gender. The people in charge of payroll and hiring at the companies I've been at were women as often as men.

    I'm sure individual examples of discrimination exist at some smaller, backwards companies. But on the whole? And in the big Fortune 500 companies? I'd love to see anyone even attempt a justification for this myth.
     
  12. BL1Y

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    Do you know what it's like to be under a large amount of stress, for any reason, on a long term basis? If so, then you do actually know a lot about what it's like to be poor.

    If we really do buy the "you don't know what it's like" argument, well what about a straight white male living in LA? I don't really know what that would be like, or what it would be like to be the same guy living in El Paso. Or, a gay white male living down the street from me. Or my dad.

    Seems more likely that we all understand each other pretty well than no one understands anyone at all.
     
  13. BL1Y

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    The pay gap, when controlling for education, seniority, etc, is about 3%. Not non-existent, but also far smaller than what you normally hear.

    The meatier issue is whether it is significantly tougher for women to get the same work in the first place.
     
  14. Dcc001

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    Again, I'd have to dig through my library to come up with the reference so I will paraphrase:

    There is no financial/advancement glass ceiling for women, provided children are not factored into the equation. A childless woman is, on average, at the same level as her male counterparts. However there is a glass ceiling if the woman chooses to bear and raise a child. The time lost during the maternity leave as well as the "anchor" after the child is born (can't move around for work as easily as before, unable to work long hours/overtime, unable to travel for business, more likely to use sick days due to children being ill, etc.) affects women more strongly than it does men. I can't remember the exact percentage that wages tend to decrease, but it can be significant depending on the job.
     
  15. LessTalk MoreStab

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    Someone should kick evolution in the dick for being so discriminatory!

    (Please note: This is a light hearted sarcastic comment only, I am not being mean to Dcc nor do I think anyone should go out, find evolution, and kick him in the dick)
     
  16. Dcc001

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    Meh. It is what it is. If you wanna have kids, you have to accept that there will be financial and career consequences. Interestingly, married people with a stay-at-home spouse actually see something like a 4% increase in their wages over their unmarried counterparts. This is probably a result, again, of the freedom of being able to work longer hours and devote more time to their job without having to leave work early for mundane things like plumbers, sick kids, car repairs, etc.
     
  17. MoreCowbell

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    Warning: I post this without having read the paper yet. I intend to take a look at it right now.

    Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the Under Secretary of Commerce for Economic Affairs Rebecca M. Blank (1999) found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.

    A very quick search turned up 5 or 6 similar papers by economists, both academic and from various U.S. government offices. I offer not promises as to the quality of said papers, but they exist.
     
  18. BL1Y

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    Married graduate students also tend to have higher grades. Could be from increased pressure to do well and not dick around, more maturity (an older student is more likely to be married), or less time spent chasing tail. Could factor into married people making more money.

    Going back to the pay gap, I would find it ridiculous when some of my fellow lawyers/law students would talk about it as if it were something happening to them. Every single firm they were going to work for would be paying lockstep compensation; everyone the same, even sometimes going so far to give lockstep bonuses.

    Government jobs also tend to have lockstep compensation based on seniority, as I would imagine many large companies and industries do.
     
  19. LessTalk MoreStab

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    For the sake of balance:

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.swifteconomics.com/2009/09/21/lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-the-wage-gap/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.swifteconomics.com/2009/09/2 ... -wage-gap/</a>
     

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  20. BL1Y

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    I do feel like I should make the economics argument about the pay gap:

    If a firm discriminates, they will either pay more for men, or pass up quality women, either way being less efficient than their competitors.

    Firm A offers $100 to men, and $90 to women. Assuming sufficient competition or low barriers to entry, Firm B will offer $95 to women who ought to be earning $100. They can then pass on a 2.5% discount to customers, earning a bigger market share, while also making 2.5% more in profits than Firm A.

    Unless there is a sufficient pool of customers similarly prejudiced as Firm A (which is what you had in the 1950s South), Firm A will be out-competed, and likely fold.

    Firm C will then emerge, and offer $98 for the $100 value women.

    This is the typical argument presented in terms of law firm discrimination. If big firms are passing on minorities and women, other firms will eagerly scoop them up at a discount, offer both lower prices and higher quality to the clients, and nab all the business.

    Obviously the market isn't perfectly efficient. Some clients will stick with their firm, even if they can't recruit as many Harvard and Yale grads because they only get to choose from the white males. Some women won't lateral to a less discriminatory firm for only a 2% increase in pay.

    But, this does make it appear that gross underpayment would be very hard to sustain without an incredibly prejudiced customer base (and most clients don't ever know the gender of the associates handling their cases).
     
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