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Drinking Age is 21..or is it 19? Meh, my fake ID says I'm 28

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Solaris, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. SaintBastard

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    Instead of a minimum drinking age, it should be left to the parent's discretion. Besides, there are 1.3 million people employed in the distillery industry. That's a lot of mouths to feed.
     
  2. PewPewPow

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    I'd like to apply as a test administrator please.
     
  3. ghettoastronaut

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    For pretty much everything in life, the age at which someone becomes a legal adult, 18, has been set as the point at which a person can autonomously do pretty much anything that's legal. They can vote, join the military, take on lots of debt to go to college, etc. Why isn't that a perfectly good point at which they can buy and drink alcohol without restriction? Letting someone start driving at 16 is reasonable; where I live there's a series of graduated licenses that takes you between 20 (with classes) and 24 (without) months before you can get your full license, so you're almost 17 when you have the second step of your license, and then almost 18 when you can get your full license, and you have to maintain a BAC of .00 until you have your full license regardless of how old you are. Overall, pretty reasonable; you're fully licensed to drive by the time you're an adult and there's no messing around with alcohol even if you are legally allowed to drink.

    I know a lot of European countries allow low-proof beverages to be sold to people under 18. In Britain, I think, you can purchase beer at pubs and restaurants as long as you also order food (and I suppose the typical regulations about not serving someone to the point of intoxication apply). I think these are fairly decent ways to go about phasing in alcohol consumption.

    Part of it comes down to cost vs. benefit. What is the benefit of me being asked the particulars of my driver's license (address, postal code, height, weight, middle name) if the clerk cashing me out on a six pack of beer suspects I'm under age? Society will not fall to pieces if 6 beers fall into the hands of an underager, and I don't particularly appreciate having my own government treat me like a child until I can prove I'm not. Now, if I were buying a large amount of alcohol, then yes, carding would be prudent. How many better things do law enforcement officers have to do than crack down on kids drinking? The police would have a legitimate role to get involved if, say, a massive party were going on with noise complants, property damage, drunk driving and date rape. But they would be justified in getting involved if that party were underage or overage, and for that matter, sober or not (it could happen).
     
  4. fuzzzy

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    A fair point. However, there isn't a law mandating you be a certain age to have sex (well, not that gets enforced if it is with someone near your age, i.e. both 15). Nor is the danger of sex (or being bad at it) really comparable to drinking, driving, or drunk driving. Now if you want to talk mandatory sex education tests to everyone who has ever been on, or even considered being on, Jerry Springer with a failing grade resulting in a mandatory vasectomy...

    The whole 21 drinking age was a result of lobbying to reduce drunk driving. States have increased the requirements to obtain a driver's license, have increased the penalties of drunk driving as well as the education about it (a large part of driver's ed), but didn't do anything on the drinking other than making an arbitrary point in time that a person is allowed to start drinking.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to make sure someone is educated about drinking before they can legally do so rather than allow them to jump right in uninformed just because they managed to survive 7,670 days? So you are 20 and 355 days old, you aren't ready yet... give it 10 more days, then I think you'll be mature enough to handle it.
     
  5. ghettoastronaut

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    Because I have a very late birthday, I think it'd be a decent idea to tie drinking priveleges with something less arbitrary than date of birth. Two problems, naturally - one, there's very little precedent for this. You become a legal adult and able to vote on the virtue of age, though there's plenty of good arguments for more stringent requirements there. Alcohol education through high school health classes, along with sex ed, would be a great idea, except you know it'd just get fucked up beyond belief. A grade six teacher once told a class I was sitting in that day that the carbonation in beer could suffocate you. The likes of MADD have been so zealous in their campaigns that whenever I had the misfortune of discussing my freshman extracurricular activites with high school students I'd be told things like "Oh, I don't want to drink, I know people who've gotten into car crashes", or more incredibly, "drinking while you have a driver's license isn't very responsible". And they'll never tell you the truth, that it takes decades of sustained, heavy, daily drinking to develop cirrhosis. Or that moderate daily alcohol consumption - daily, none of this "one glass of wine on Fridays" bullshit - of up to 5-6 drinks per day in elderly men, reduces all-cause mortality. Or that the vast majority of people who drink manage to not become alcoholics, and just because your neighbour down the street was an alcoholic, or some small town's football team lost a few members because they were drinking and driving, doesn't mean that you can't drink, have fun, and not destroy your life.

    I mean, none of that amounts to a real argument against better alcohol education in schools or maybe moving the drinking limit away from age and towards completing x years of high school, but if they could get good doctors, or pharmacists, or nurses (if they must) who don't have the MADD agenda to push on kids in the schools lecturing on the subject, then kids might actually have the chance to be told some good, honest, reliable information about the risks of drinking, rather than bullshit like "if your body can't eliminate the carbon dioxide from beer, you could die".
     
  6. Denver

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    I think for a lot of things we apply an age limit just because we have to draw a line somewhere, and on average that's when most people fit the criteria (i.e. maturity). And speaking of the horrors of allowing 18-year-olds and (*gasp*) younger people some degree of responsibility, realize that many states allow gun purchases at 18. A cursory look at Wikipedia shows that some states allow kids as young as 14 to go out hunting. Surely allowing that kid to go around shooting at things is more dangerous than giving him a beer, right? "But he's probably got his dad with him to train him correctly," you might argue, and I would agree with you. But why would this not apply to alcohol consumption?

    I agree with the general consensus that yes, if tomorrow the drinking age in the United States abruptly went down to 18 then there would be problems with some people going crazy temporarily, that much is inevitable. However that surely wouldn't go on forever; the drinking culture in the U.S. is different from elsewhere in the world, but it isn't that different. Once that first crop of kids who expected to drink (legally) at 21 but got the privilege unexpectedly at 18 made it through, we would reach a new equilibrium.

    You can argue all day that there will be more accidents than otherwise if the age is lowered, no shit. We could raise the drinking age even higher and make the penalty for DUI to be death if we really want to stop the drinking and driving. Hell, let's just get rid of drinking altogether, surely that will help the situation. Earlier someone even wrote that we could limit the purchases by "young adults" but not others ("regular adults" apparently?). My view is simple: you are either an adult and mature enough to make the decisions society dictates that adults can make, or you aren't. There's been lots of talk about catering to the Lowest Common Denominator, and "sure maybe you're mature enough to handle drinking at 18, but not everyone is so it should be illegal." That is asinine. Why over something as common as drinking are some adults more equal than others, but for other far more dangerous things like joining the military or even simply owning a gun, does society say you are mature enough? It is completely irrational.


    Personal story no one wants to read:
    If you're wondering why I'm really into this subject, it is partially because I got an underage ~6 months before my 21st birthday. Needless to say, I was pissed. Luckily, despite the ranger who gave us the citation being kind of a prick (it was just me and a few of my friends drinking casually, not driving or causing any ruckus), the judge was cool and gave us what amounted to 6 months probation (abeyance, technically) and paying court fees. Personally, I was not a big drinker or partier and 18, and I'm certainly not at 21. I don't think I "matured" much in that particular department at all in those 3 years. I knew not to drink and drive then, and I know it now.

    And if none of that swayed you, consider this: what does having the age be 21 actually do? People who are under 21 already drink, and some of them drink and drive. Shit, people under 18 drink and some DWI. The law affects some vague conceptual person who cares a lot about the legal drinking age law and doesn't drink underage, but apparently didn't give a shit about the DUI laws and would have broken those if he had been allowed to drink. Oh yes, many lives saved by stopping this guy.
     
  7. Solaris

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    This thread is the biggest load of bullshit I've read in a long while.

    I'm 20 and grew up in the UK. When I turned 18 I started drinking at the weekends, made a few mistakes including getting a credit card to fund what was essentially a drinking holiday with friends. So sure, I made mistakes, but I learnt lessons too.

    But what is most important here is that in my opinion, when you are 18 you are an adult. And I say fuck you to anybody else who thinks they have the right to tell me, an adult, what the fuck I can and cannot do.

    Fuck you if you think I shouldn't be allowed to smoke pot, and double fuck you if you think I shouldn't be allowed to drink.

    For the land of the free, you guys are very authoritarian.
     
  8. Sam N

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    All good stuff.

    My senior year of high school I was a "mentor" to other younger fuck up students. Basically this meant that I helped em with schoolwork and talked them down when they were certain they were going to stab their fathers that night. Most of the people that were "mentors" were nerds. I wasn't (I swear!).

    This was all good, until they decided us mentors should go to the elementary schools with the D.A.R.E. program and talk to the kids about how we have been able to abstain from drugs and alcohol and live such great lives. I don't know why they assumed none of us did drugs or alcohol, but in a few cases they were most definitely wrong. I found this plan fucking hilarious, because I partied my ass off and got stoned before school daily. I wanted to give the kids the realist vision of alcohol and drug use that you have so nicely articulated (though my idea of it then wasn't quite as clear as your's is here), and got in a few verbal arguments with the cop in charge of dare regarding what exactly I was going to say. Obviously my dress didn't fit the prototype.

    The cop wanted to pull me out of the thing, but eventually I convinced him I'd be good and he let me go, though he would be sure to be there and supervise. In all honestly, even if we had tried alcohol, we weren't allowed to tell the kids that. We had to play it like a bunch of fucking vaginas and weave some fantastical notion of this pussy ass innocent scholarly life we were leading. I still planned on busting some knowledge on dem kidz, but in the end I pussed out (mostly). I told the kids that I had drank a few times, and blathered on about how while a few drinks might not be so bad once in awhile, it's very easy to lose control. Or something like that. I felt like a fucking tool. At least I managed to piss off the cop.

    As an aside; at recess the elementary students dared me to slap one of the "mentor" girl's asses. I, of course, did it, in full view of the cop too. He was even more pissed about that. Nothing like a seventeen year old falling victim to the peer pressure of a handful of 9-10 year olds.


    Focus: I think it should be 18. It would have saved me a shit load of legal trouble ($$$) from the numerous underage consumptions I got. Yup, that's my reason.
     
  9. Nate17

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    Most places, the DUI laws are the Same for anyone under 21, truckers, and bus drivers.. .02 is the legal limit. All other instances is .08.
     
  10. redbullgreygoose

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    I've been drinking since I was 15. I'm 19 now, 2 years away from being a legal drinker. And let me just say, I don't even care about law. Do I think it's a stupid law? Yes. But it's only a minor inconvenience. The United States has so many other things to worry about that I wouldn't even support a bill to lower the drinking age. I would ask myself why the fuck something this stupid even matters when unemployment rate is almost 10%.

    It doesn't stop anyone who's underage from drinking. It doesn't affect me. So, who care's?

    I certainly don't.

    edit: Since I got this in a rep, I'll answer it. Even though I have a fake ID that I use occasionally when my friends want to go to club (which is despise) I like the idea that the drinking age keeps younger kids out of clubs. I know I won't want kids my age around me when I'm able to start drinking in bars and clubs. Plus, 21 still leaves plenty of time for that kind of shit anyways.

    Under 21: Drink with your friends in privacy away from the man
    Over 21: Drink in public.

    It's the American way.
     
  11. swagger

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    In Denmark, you are allowed to buy any liquor in a store at age 15 (Can't remember if it has been raised to 16)
    At 18 you are allowed to buy at bars/clubs. The clubs set the age limit of who they let in, but people under 18 can't buy alcohol. I have seen places where 17YOs are allowed, but most clubs keep it at 18 or older.

    Also you have to be 18 to get a drivers license. Don't think that drinking and driving is a huge problem in Denmark. The problem is that young people drink a LOT and got alcoholictendencies.

    Focus: The way it works in Denmark I think is fine. If the government raised the legalage it wouldn't change anything - it is pretty easy to buy alcohol even at age 13. I don't know how it would be in US.
     
  12. Muses

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    I used to be completely in favor of lowering the drinking age to 18 - I thought the only reason it was still 21 was some archaic holdover from the days of yore when parents beat their children for talking back and the coloreds still had to use their own restroom - until I did a Google search one day and found the statistics for drunk driving fatalities in the 18-20 year old demographic when the MLDA was 18:

    Spin whatever argument you like about how 18-year-olds can go to war so they should be allowed to drink or we should put more responsibility on our youngsters, I think a 13% increase in 18-20 year old drunk driving deaths counters just about any philosophical rationale you can think of. If we lower the drinking age to 18 - assuming that's all we do - more people will die.

    That's not to say I'm against some kind of reform for drinking laws. I think, at the very least, getting caught underage with alcohol should be a fine and nothing else - no misdemeanor on your record or anything, nothing worse than if you had gotten a speeding ticket. Underage drinking by itself should never give anybody a criminal record, and our kids shouldn't have their future job prospects held over their heads just for deciding to have a drink before 21.



    ... Now if you don't mind I'm going to go use my fake ID to buy some liquor with which to pregame tonight, before using that same ID to get into multiple bars downtown. Fuck off, I'm not a hypocrite. My using a fake ID to get around our drinking age is saving lives, man.
     
  13. Nettie

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    From your own link...

    I had a fake, way back when it was much easier than it is now. My sister is older, I simply went in & had her license done with my picture, and memorized her info. I drank more *before* I had a fake than when I did when I got it. I just went to bars that were more expensive than sitting around a house, apartment, etc., so I couldn't afford to. But then again, I started drinking at parties (hi, living in corn country where you can road party) at 16.

    Then, I went in the military (I was 21 when I went in). And I saw both sides. I saw the 18 yo drunken idiots who have never been away from home end up in Seoul, Korea, able to drink whatever they wanted, and end up in the hospital due to alcohol poisoning. I saw the 18 yos who had drank before, it was no big deal. We even had a vending machine in the barracks that you could buy Budweiser (albeit the Korean made one!) for 75 cents a can.

    I completely agree that an underage drinking charge should *not* stay on your record. I do think a fine, court supervision, and alcohol awareness classes (as joke as they are) should be mandatory. If you try to make it like a speeding ticket, then what is the point? "Oh, well, if I get busted, I pay $100 and can do it next weekend." Court supervision = you do it again, it *is* going on your record.

    As ex-military, I do agree it should be put back to 18. But in stages. Hell, I remember in IL when it was 19 in Champaign & SUI. We did worse driving to go drink where it was legal that if we could have stayed a couple hours away & did it.
     
  14. scotchcrotch

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    I bet if alcohol was banned altogether, it'd save even more lives! Oh wait...

    Fuck it, if you're old enough to die for your country in combat, you're old enough to have a beer.
     
  15. LukesBoxHero

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    From my experiences it REALLY matters where you are. I know that anywhere above the Thruway (I-90) will not have an issue with a decent fake ID. Hell, I've seen people buy tobacco and alcohol with expired ID's. I'm on my second fake now (under the state "Where America's Day Begins" -- Maine), both of which were ordered from Canada for $60. My first one got taken at a liquor store that apparently had an out-of-state scanner, to which I was just told to "get lost." I didn't argue.

    But, I've had some trouble in Albany and my buddy, who has the same type of Maine ID, had some big trouble down in Rochester apparently. Ironically, they still let him into the bar after all the hoop-lah.

    Back on Focus: I think the drinking age should be 19 or 20. This puts most people as a sophomore or junior in college (assuming you go from high school to college), and thus exposed to the college drinking culture anyways. I had my first fake second semester freshmen year, and all it did in my eyes was made it easier to get beer when I wanted it instead of waiting on someone else and tipping them a few bucks. Plus, it doesn't hurt when you're one of the few on your freshmen floor with a fake and the ladies need their Smirnoff.

    Turning 21 in just 3 short months, I have a handful (2-4) of buddies that are toeing the consistently drinking and driving line, and it does scare me. It's a generational debate, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it change when my age range becomes powerfully relevant.
     
  16. Muses

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    It's true that several countries had a drop in traffic fatalities around that same time, but as the PDF linked in that point says, all those countries passed stricter laws (as the U.S. did) and/or pushed drunk driving public awareness programs. Furthermore, the United States is not Europe. Like earlier posters mentioned, there's a definite cultural difference in how Americans versus Europeans drink. The "it worked in Europe" argument doesn't necessarily hold water.

    Leaving the drinking age at 21 would still make it a lot harder for minors to get booze in the first place, even if getting caught was only a slap on the wrist. But your suggestion is good too though, really anything that's not a criminal record just for getting drunk would be OK with me.

    I can't really tell if you're just joking or trying to make a point... but of course Prohibition made the country a whole lot more dangerous than legal drinking ever did. The point of my post was, numbers say that a significant number of 18-to-20 year olds are not responsible enough to be trusted to drink legally and not drive a car. If the number were something like a 5% decrease then you could argue that it's not really statistically significant enough to say the higher drinking age caused the decrease, but 13% is pretty significant. I guess you could argue that that change comes from some other cause, but I don't see anybody pointing out an alternative anti-drunk driving catalyst.
     
  17. ghettoastronaut

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    Just as a matter of anal retentive over-education, what is the absolute difference in rates that the relative difference of 13% represents? I mean, if you go from 0.01 crashes per 1,000 people to 0.02 crashes per 1,000 people, that's an increase of 100%.
     
  18. erk33

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    This makes sense for the 18 year olds serving their country, but what about the kids that have no intention of doing so? Why should they get reap the benefits just because there's a very remote possibility of a draft forcing them to serve some day?
     
  19. scotchcrotch

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    Define "statistically significant".

    Here's an anti-drunk driving catalyst- no licenses until you're 21. Get a fucking bus pass til then.

    From an outsider's view, what's more dangerous, alcohol or a car? If you want to talk about statistics, compare the number of alcohol poisoning deaths to car fatalities.
     
  20. scotchcrotch

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    It's the logic behind the policy, not to be taken literally.

    But, yes, I'd support a bill that gave active military the right to buy alcohol with their ID's.