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Casino Royale

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrFrylock, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. effinshenanigans

    effinshenanigans
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    My fiance and I went to a Steve Miller Band concert up at Foxwoods a little while back. She had never been to a casino, so I told her we should go early and check it out so she can see what it's like.

    She was excited to try a slot machine, and we found the one she liked. I handed her $5 and less than two minutes later, the money was gone.

    Me: ...and that's the slot machine.
    Her: Fuck gambling.

    She hasn't bet another dollar since.

    As for me, I could care less about gambling in casinos. I've played a few hands of blackjack and played the pass line on a craps table a few times. I've won a paltry amount of money but never really understood the allure of it.

    I will sit down to play poker with some friends if they want a game, but that hasn't happened in a long time, and when it does, it's only a $10 buy in and we drink until we can't bluff anymore.
     
  2. JWags

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    That dude sounds like an uninformed asshat. I have no problem when people start getting pissy about people playing like morons. Hitting on 14 against a 6, staying on 15 when a face card is showing. Those are the people who annoy the fuck out of me. Yes I understand its random, but it feels like they are just fucking with the table.

    Now thats not really fair. Slot machines are time sucks for cheap old people and fat fucks who want to put their money down for a chance to win without expending any sort of effort. Blackjack is fun to sit and BS with your friends/table while playing and there is a bit of strategy involved. And craps, well, if you understand craps and can't have fun at a winning table, I don't know what to say. I've met more random people with hilarious stories, hot girls, and the like at a fun craps table than at any normal bar. Its just a fun atmosphere and winning makes it even more interesting.
     
  3. Frank

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    I'm willing to bet most of the people doing 'dumb' things at the table are counting cards, it's not that hard to do, if they really don't know what they're doing they can just ask the dealer for the smart play.
     
  4. Evolution

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    I know a couple that apparently have a system for slot machines, based on picking the ones in the areas that are most likely to pay out (i.e., close to people so that they'll want to get in on it too). I'd call bullshit, but they seem to win thousands of dollars each trip, including a couple jackpots...
     
  5. katokoch

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    Back in high school me and a few buddies used to play Texas Hold'Em with spare change. I think the biggest ever pot was close to $40 in quarters and dimes, but I'd just play 'til I ran out of the $10 in change I'd bring.

    I enjoy little low-stakes card games with friends and family but have no interest in casinos. Burning money (losing) just isn't fun to me, ever. I'd much rather watch my grandpa heckle my sisters during a game of 10-Point Pitch in his farmhouse.
     
  6. JWags

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    I think you underestimate the stupidity of alot of people who go to casinos. The old South American man who often delayed the game cause he was yelling at waitresses for more scotch and attempting to teach his daughter next to him to play, likely not card counting. The moron in a Hawaiian shirt? Not counting. If there was some sort of betting variation, maybe, but these people were just idiots.
     
  7. Nom Chompsky

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    Pro-tip: If you want to pregame at a Casino, go to the poker room and play their lowest limit game.

    If you have a reward card, you get money back, I want to say $1-2 per hour of play. You might have to pay 10-15 bucks an hour in blinds, but you can easily make that up in free drinks. Heck, even if you played just the top 1% of hands, and just shoved them regardless of position, you'd probably break even and get to drink for free.

    Of course, this is pretty boring unless your table is interesting and fun or you really want to get drunk for cheap.
     
  8. rei

    rei
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    I'm curious about casino blackjack, but have never been in a casino and have no friends really interested. I wouldn't know where to start and am scared I'd get killed by security for breaking some unwritten rule.
     
  9. Whatthe...

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    Pretty much just blackjack and craps for me, and I really only play in Vegas. I love craps, it's really easy, offers the best odds in the casino, and you get tons of awesome cheering when you're on a roll. I have no idea how those dealers keep track of all those chips on a busy table.
     
  10. JWags

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    If you understand how to play, pretty much sit down, change some cash for chips, and begin betting/playing. There is no crazy barrier to entry or start up test. As far as rules, you're not supposed to touch the cards and stuff like that, but the dealers are usually pretty good about gently correcting you if you do something dumb. Unless you are counting cards and making fat stacks or generally making a scene, security doesn't give a shit about you.
     
  11. silway

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    Just to echo this, most dealers I have ever seen will straight up teach you how to play and suggest moves for you. They don't care, it's a table game so the odds are in the house's favor (though less so than anything but craps passline I believe) so no one cares if they coach you along. Particularly at a low minimum game.
     
  12. Omegaham

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    Not at all. Most people making dumb plays are just that - dumb. People counting cards occasionally make counterintuitive plays, (For example, if the count is high, and you have a 12, with the dealer's card being a 2, you actually want to stand) but 99% of the time they're going to go with basic strategy.

    A lot of uninformed people have "hunches" - they think, "Well, I know I'm SUPPOSED to hit when the dealer has a face card and I have a fifteen, but I just KNOW that I'm gonna bust if I do." Alternatively, they're just fucking stupid / drunk and make boneheaded plays. Casinos actually don't worry that much about card counters except at the high-stakes tables. You can sit at a ten-dollar table and count cards all day long, and they don't care. The reason is that a typical card counter will make about half his maximum bet per hour. At a ten-dollar table, that's usually about $30 an hour. That's pocket change compared to the shitheads who drop a hundred bucks a hand and stand on soft 17.

    The typical card counter is an intense, younger male who doesn't talk to anyone, doesn't drink, and varies his bets. The typical blackjack player, at least where I am, is a retarded Mexican who hollers in Spanish whenever he doubles down and harasses the cocktail waitress for more free booze.

    The best thing to do, (after you've done your homework, that is) is to walk in and just stand and watch a low-stakes game in progress. Get your feel for the game and how it flows, and then take a seat. Some people like to come in when the dealer is shuffling, as it's a natural break in the game, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a free seat while a game is going on. You give your money to the dealer, and he gives you chips. You then stick your chips in front of you, just like poker, and put your bet in the little circle in front of you.

    When you want to hit, you lightly tap the table. When you want to stand, you lightly wave your hand. If you want to double, you take the money and drop it alongside your existing bet. When splitting, I usually like to show my money and say, "I'd like to split these," and the dealer will split them for you. Touching the cards is a no-no, but casinos are very friendly to newcomers, as they want you to come back (and keep losing money).
     
  13. Whatthe...

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    I pm'd this to rei:

    I can't agree more about hunches. Consistency in how you play blackjack is probably the best advice you can give somebody learning. Hunches are the fastest way to lose money. I always tell people who are learning that if you have 16 vs a dealer with 7 or better to pick either hit or stand, and never change. Always hit or always stand, it'll average out better for you than if you're constantly flip-flopping. I don't even really care (that much) if you hit a 13 when the dealer is showing a 6...provided you always hit.

    I also try to get people who want to learn to not sit at the position before the dealer. How that person plays has a greater effect on the cards the dealer receives than somebody who is sitting in the first or second position.
     
  14. Omegaham

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    As I said before, this idea, which is apparently quite pervasive, confuses the hell out of me. They're random cards, so it doesn't really matter whether the guy next to the dealer is brilliant or a retard; he has no real effect on your odds of winning. This is an example of confirmation bias - everyone remembers when some dude stood on fifteen and "caused" you to bust with a king instead of getting the four that the next guy got, but no one remembers when that same guy stood on fifteen and "gave" you the king you needed to get 21.

    That being said, sitting at the end of the table is actually the best spot, if only because you avoid the idiots bitching about you fucking up their cards.

    As for doing suboptimal plays, like standing on sixteen when the dealer has seven or higher - it's your choice, but bear in mind that from a probability standpoint, all you're doing is giving the house a bigger edge. Blackjack, unless you're counting cards, is not a game of skill; it's just the ability to remember basic strategy. Deviation of any kind results in a worse expected value of your bet. There are a few times when it seems counterintuitive to play basic strategy, (Soft 18 and the dealer has six or less? Double!) but that's how you minimize your losses.
     
  15. Whatthe...

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    By saying they're random cards you're implying that a player has just as much chance to draw a 10 vs drawing say a 5. This isn't the case as your chances of drawing a 10 is 31% vs 7.5% for drawing a 5 assuming a single full deck. Those probabilities change as you remove cards from the deck and don't replace them. Its a fair assumption for a player to assume he has a higher probability that a 10 is coming his or the dealers way. This is what basic strategy is built on. Card counters rely on these probabilities in order to be able to make better bets based upon the count. The idea is to get as much money onto the table when the odds are better for you to win. The casino's combat this by adding decks of cards, and not playing the entire shoe. The new automatic card shufflers also make it damn near impossible for card counters because the cards that have been played get reinserted and reshuffled into the stack.

    Maybe we look at how blackjack is played differently. I consider that everybody at a blackjack table is playing as a group against the dealer. Not as single hands against the house. Sitting on the end closest to the dealer has the largest impact on the tables probabilities of winning against the dealer. That impact is lessened the closer you get to the starting positions on the table.

    From a probability stand point staying or hitting on 16 when the dealer is showing a 7 or better, it's better to stay because there are so many cards that can bust you. I think when you actually play it out enough times, the win/lose percentages are pretty close to 50/50 either way you play it. Basic strategy says hit, because you assume the dealer has a 10 down, and that you've already lost so you might as well hit. Flipping back and forth between standing and taking a card is what kills beginner players because you skew those percentages. I always hit for a couple of reasons, one I'm gambling and I enjoy the risk, and two God hates a coward.
     
  16. Omegaham

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    No, not at all. You can still have weighted probabilities and have it still be random. When I say "random," I mean that the previous cards have no bearing on the probabilities of the cards YOU are going to get. Well, they do... slightly. But it's something that's calculated in tenths of a percentage point. And furthermore, you're in control anyway - if you're Rain Main and can calculate the change in odds from that single extra card that the guy took, then you can modify your play accordingly. But the person next to you hitting, splitting, or standing doesn't have any bearing on your odds of winning or losing. Think about it this way - say he happened to have a hand where his play was actually good. Would you still consider his play to be badly affecting how everyone else's hands went?

    (This example is in-depth, so it's spoilered)
    Let's say you're sitting at a single-deck table with Dipshit McGee to your right. Dealer has a six up, Dipshit gets a king and a 3. You have a 5 and a 6.

    Basic strategy for him is to stand; basic strategy for you is to double. Unfortunately, Dipshit says, "I think I'm gonna get something good" and hits. He gets another king, busting him, and making you seethe because that would've been 21 for you. Later on that night, you ambush him in the parking lot and bust his head open with a tire iron because he's the reason why you have to pay Vinnie instead of feeding your kids.

    But think about this - if he stood, the probability of you getting a ten is 15 / 49 (We don't know what the other dealer's card is, so we don't subtract it from the deck). Having hit and busted with a king, the probability of you getting a ten is now 14 / 49, a change in just over 2%. And that's a single-deck game! Playing with six or eight decks, it's completely negligible.

    This further decreases the impact of other people playing the game.

    Could you explain this a little bit more fully? The way I see it, my strategy is completely unchanged whether I'm in a casino with four Dipshit McGees or whether I'm in my room fiddling with a deck. If I were a card counter, the only change in strategy is that I would have to count their cards as well. But because I have that information, them hitting or standing doesn't make a difference; I still have the count and can act on it, so it has no impact on my odds of winning.
     
  17. Whatthe...

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    This is my point. The probabilities do have an effect on the cards you get and it can be significant. This is what card counters do, when the count gets high they put as much money in as they possibly can in order to take advantage of the changes in probabilities in their favour. In a game where the house edge is only around 1%, I'll take any advantage I can get to make that even or slightly in my favour.

    You took my quote out of context. I'm not going to change how I play based on Dipshit McGee's play. I'll still play basic strategy, but where Dipshit McGee is playing could affect the entire tables probability of winning. Using your example above with buddy having 3,10, me with a 5,6, and the dealer has a 6 up. His gut feeling gives him a 10 and busts him out, I double down and get a 5. By the time the play gets around the table to the dealer, any bad plays made by Dipshit McGee will likely be lost in the wash as play goes around the table provided everyone else is playing basic strategy. As long as the dealer busts I don't care what cards I do it with. If we use the same example with Dipshit McGee in the last position to play, his hunch busts him out again with 23, however instead of the dealer taking a 10 for 26, the dealer gets a 5 for 21 and everyone at the table either ends up losing or pushing. This is what makes me seething mad, not doubling on an 11 and drawing a 5. This is what I mean by the table is playing against the house provided everyone is playing basic strategy and not needlessly drawing 10's out of the shoe.
     
  18. Omegaham

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    But say his hunch happens to pay off, and he gets, say, a two? Then the probability of you getting a ten goes up. It's completely arbitrary.

    In any case, if you have the memory to be able to not only change your bets but modify basic strategy according to which cards are left in the deck, that's astounding (and scary). But playing basic strategy, your odds of winning or losing are not going to change depending on what he had. And even if they do, they will go up and down with equal probability depending on whether his play happens to take good or bad cards out of play.

    Let's eliminate Dipshit entirely. Every play, before the dealer deals cards to the people at the table, he takes a random number of cards, (Let's say 0-4 cards, just to simulate a player) flips them face-up, and discards them. Do you really think that the number of cards that the dealer discards will affect your odds of winning or losing? Because that's all that changes when Dipshit is playing. Instead of taking one card, he takes two. Or instead of taking a card, he stands.