Just to juke from the dog pile for a minute. There does need to be a shift away from the police handling mental health crises as the front line response. A shift away from using jails as temporary housing for the mentally ill. I would be in favor of shifting the resources cops use in these arenas to the professionals that are trained to handle it. Fund community mental health centers like what was supposed to happen when state run hospitals were shut down. I dont think youd get much objection, in principle, from the cops. It will be fun to watch politicians on the left lose their number one argument against budget cuts, "My opponent wants to gut the budget for our first responders, our poli... firefighters and firefighters with his reckless austerity." It will be quite the shift from the traditional budget cut scare tactics.
Yeah, it'd be interesting, but it's never going to happen. There is no democrat demographic more loyal to the party, or more eager to fall in line with the candidates the establishment supports. Judging by America's history it would seem like this group would be the most likely to rally around a 3rd party alternative, but when you look at how they choose candidates in the primaries and generals they seem like the least likely.
I don't support Antifa because they're on the left. I support any group that kicks the shit out of white supremacists, or act as protection from white supremacists. If some 2A biker group beat the shit out of some assholes saying they won't be replaced by Jews, they'd get a thumbs up out of me. Let me be clear. The only people I'm interested in seeing harmed are white supremacists, be it physically or otherwise. I think it's fucked up that random people got beat up simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can also think that it's great that some white supremacist gets the shit kicked out of them. If you think it's wrong for a white supremacist to get the shit kicked out of them, let me present a thought experiment. Some asshole said or did something way out of line to someone you care deeply about in front of you, and you didn't defend them. How do you think the person you cared about would feel that you didn't speak up? Would they think that you silently agreed with all the shitty things that asshole said and did? I don't know about the rest of you, but if I saw that, that's what I'd certainly think. It would be understandable if you didn't want to interfere in another person's relationship imploding before your very eyes. That's just one interaction with 3 people. It's a little different when that same asshole starts in on a person's gender, skin color, or other things that they were born with. That kind of hate affects everybody. Not speaking up gives that kind of asshole the latitude to keep pushing until someone gets killed, for no other reason than someone hating some aspect of a person that they were born with. If some of you think defunding the police is unconscionable, wait 'til you see what they've done to education and infrastructure! Seriously though, even I think it's foolish to get rid of the police completely. To be fair, I haven't read any sort of proposals as to what policing will look like, but I would assume that they'd dissolve the existing department and start from scratch. I read a reddit post from someone in Germany that described what a person has to do in order to be a police officer. Stuff like having a college degree and undergoing a psychological exam. Things that seem like pretty common sense things, at least from my perspective. It shouldn't take more hours to learn how to cut a person's hair than it does to be a cop. Another issue I hope they tackle is this notion that you don't rat on your fellow cop. Today, when a cop has to make the decision to report a shitty cop, they also have to decide if they can do their job without having backup, or having a reputation as a snitch. Obviously, those can have fatal consequences for doing the right thing. They need to incentivize having a clean running police service and having trust from their community. Whether that be independent oversight, offering large monetary amounts to turn in bad cops, or something else entirely to help weed out the bad ones. Ultimately, I think having a smaller, demilitarized police with that extra money going towards things like infrastructure and education would have a greater effect on crime than more triggerhappy bullies with the law on their side.
I've seen this argument around a lot lately. The gist of it is basically "Oh, if we just love people more they'll stop being criminals." Does anyone else ever sit in awe sometimes at just how fucking stupid our society has become? How do people support this, let alone so many that it's actually in the works? You can't even call this naive. It's just really, really fucking dumb. Let's be real too. When this turns into a disaster the advocates who pushed this moronic idea will never admit they were wrong. People don't do that anymore. They will never admit that their own terrible ideas are the problem. People have spent the last 6 or so years digging their heels in and rationalizing any and everything that debunks their bullshit, no matter how obvious, or irrefutable. I don't see why that would change now.
I don’t quite know what this supposed to be other than some bizarre gaslighting attempt. They‘ve targeted far more civilians, police and right-wing bloggers than white supremacists. I don’t know what else to tell you. You can not care/write it off all you want, but that’s a little ironic from someone who’s scared to leave the house over violence.
I can see some logic behind getting someone else to do shit the police currently do, and reducing that footprint, especially in seeing the expense these departments run. I think about the last few police interactions I've had: -called to an accident for a report -traffic violations/speeding tickets -security at football games -fingerprinted for a job & visa application -directing traffic -patrolling my niece's school (some damned tough crime going on in a rural SC elementary school, gotta tell ya...glad they put their top man on it) If you looked at the top 5 things cops do and measure their impact on public safety...yeah, I can see how it's not worth it, or there's a cheaper/easier way to get there. That's a far cry from "we don't need cops", but defunding a police department and getting the DMV to handle some of that wouldn't be too big of a deal for most places. Also, thinking about some of the shit they are equipped and trained to do, like: shoot people handcuff people beat people with sticks spray people with pepper spray taze people wrestle people to the ground I can see where a disconnect has emerged. The public needs you for mindless traffic control, and your default tool, overwhelming volume of training and organizational cultural focus is violence, then yeah...something has gone sideways. I also see where the crime wave we experienced in the 1980's and 1990's is over, but the police presence and power is still just as heavy. So much of this seems to just be cop culture, like "I put my life on the line every night" when the reality is a taxi driver has a more dangerous profession. Also, if I was able, I would be setting up booths at these protests registering people to vote, signing them up for concealed carry classes, and/or anything else I could to get folks to exercise some of their rights. Lastly...it's real fucking quiet on the libertarian front right now. Like...a bit too quiet. Like.....hm, well....I wonder why Rand Paul isn't out there going "fuck yeah, we don't need the police" right now. What could it be?
I think the point is being missed. I don't give a fuck if it's Antifa or anybody else fucking up white supremacists. I'm talking about the nail and you're talking about how the hammer being used has a tendency to hit thumbs sometimes instead. I don't care if the hammer being used is a sledgehammer, tack hammer or a fucking rock, as long as the nail is punched down. Given the riots in the streets over police brutality and shit like Breitbart/Stormfront et al., this Venn diagram looks pretty close to a circle to me. If getting stung by a hornet was potentially fatal to me, why would I be afraid if an exterminator took care of a hornet's nest under my porch?
I’m not missing anything. You’re obfuscating the original point that was made in the first place and are arbitrarily changing the scope of the entire justification. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter much. Using your final analogy, that’s fine I guess. Just don’t cry foul when the exterminators miss your porch and start spraying their poison through your bedroom window.
Yeah, it's as if white supremacists have done and continue to do awful things to black people and other minorities for centuries.
I agree with a lot of this. If you actually look at the majority of work the average police department does vs the amount of funding they get, it's definitely not out of the realm to start finding better alternatives to having police be the catch all "emergency" line. Someone breaks into my car and steals shit. What are the police going to do when I call them. Take some information down, write up a report about it, and tell me, "There's not much we can do about this. If we happen to catch someone who is in possession of your things, we'll let you know." I get raped. I want to get a rape kit test and have someone investigate to find the person who raped me. Why am I going to the police station to report this? The same guy out on traffic duty the day before is going to be the guy trying to handle my rape case. Granted I'm sure they have separate detectives responding to cases like this, but this shouldn't be a "police issue". My neighbor is lighting fireworks late at night. Again, why is it a police officer the person I call for something like this? Maybe it's just the catch all nature we've decided to lay at the feet of the police where they've become the go to response for whenever we need someone to come immediately to solve our problems and we've gotten so deep even thinking about not having the safety net of them being a phone call away is too much for some people to let go of. I do think restructuring exactly what a police force should be used for, which in turn would require less funding for them, isn't some left field idea no one could get behind. Abolishing a police force without a good plan in place to transition to something different is a poor idea.
attorney for one of the fired officers is on CNN right now and is claiming the following: - there was an extended struggle and lack of cooperation prior to the video the public has seen - that the officers were not kneeling on his neck but rather his shoulder/back area - Floyd was on meth He's stuttering, confusing his words, keeps having to look down and read off paper, and right before commercial break was having his computer make sounds at him and appeared very confused by it.
I don't know why they're even bothering. This case is already completely lost in the court of public opinion. His client's only hope is to take a bench trial, hope for the best, and then disappear completely if he doesn't get prison time.
If what the attorney said about his client is true -- the one who was holding the legs -- only being on the job for a few days, about Chauvin being his trainer, and about how his client expressed several times that they should roll the guy over and/or handle it differently, then I could maybe see him getting off and one or two other guys at most. Though that won't lead to fewer protests. All Gas No Breaks did some of the best journalism I've seen on the protest. Dude shut up and let the protesters speak:
Yeah but the public doesn't care about any of that. There's no point in him going on CNN. Just take the bench trial, make your case the judge, and then take the acquittal (if you get it) and vanish completely.
Earlier today my mom said "so, I hear he was on meth". I said, "so? you saw the video... did he look like he was doing ANYTHING that warranted the actions against him?" "No... you're right..." So there IS a stigma that will exist due to being a "meth head"... but I think it will be overcome very, very easily. "Just watch this video..."
Yeah... I think, if that were the case, the guy should be handled very, very differently, and given a slap on the wrist... it's too much to expect someone new to the job to resist more senior guys on the job. If true, I genuinely feel for the guy. The other ones? Fuck them.
I'm curious to see the bodycam footage. I want to know what those other officers said and did the entire time. There was a lot going on, and communications between them gives relevant context to what happened. Chauvin is a piece of shit and I hope (and expect) he wastes the rest of his life behind bars. The others though... I want to see the bodycam footage. It would take A LOT to make me think they weren't also guilty by being an accessory, but the introduction of new facts changes the equation. Him being on meth or not is irrelevant. They might try to claim the drugs is what made him die but they'll be wrong.
Yeah, but unlike say watching the whole Rodney King video, where he was on PCP, had gotten up, been tasered, and kept struggling, Floyd stopped. Whatever Floyd did before the public video, he got to the point where he was no longer struggling or even responsive. Something about those officers' training is terribly wrong if they don't have the understanding or ability to recognize that, and relax their pressure. I still don't know why Chauvin pulled him out of the back of the squad car from the other side, though.