Wow. So aside from the many arguments, ranging from valid to hilarious, and at the risk of getting ripped on...am I the only one who finds nationalism a bit silly? And, in this case, utterly retarded? I mean, I like cheering my country on in any way, and I try to be appreciative of where I happen to live everyday, but I can't take it more seriously than that. I find, even aside from situations like this one (but especially this one), the problem stems from humans putting WAY too serious an emphasis on the piece of named earth they happen to be from. The more I read about this, the more it looks like fans of one sports team getting way too pissed off about a rival fan wearing the wrong jersey in their stadium. Einsteing abhorred nationalism (<a class="postlink" href="http://thinkexist.com/quotation/nationalism_is_an_infantile_sickness-it_is_the/15531.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://thinkexist.com/quotation/nationa ... 15531.html</a>). So did this guy (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpP_FnGns0o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpP_FnGns0o</a>). Just sayin`.
I bet your spine is as limber as Linda Blairs neck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0GnB6wusaU What are you proud of anyway?
This is a slippery slope. So you don't feel proud when your sports team's win? When your favorite musicians win awards or perform really well live? When your favorite movie wins at the Oscar's? But that's beside the point, the point is quite simple: The kids were being douchebags, no two ways around it. The school thought it was fit to ask them to remove the articles, the kids got all bratty, the school sent them home for their own good. If you wanna debate the Mexican issue, sure, but the school incident is pretty clear.
Proud? Can't say I do. At all, actually. Happy, excited, and just generally glad things went my way? Fucking totally, man. Unless you mean the sports teams I play on, in which case I do feel pride, specifically in the parts I played. There's a difference. High five if you can find it. If by kids you're including the adults who made this news, we agree. Thought my first post was clear:
Does anyone have thoughts on the 'spreading of diversity' in America and how it might relate to these kids. I remember being in college when the 'African Americans' were wearing the t-shirts with maps and flags of Africa everywhere. I remember thinking then, "Why the hell are you doing that? You're not an African. You're an American. You've never even been to Africa. I bet you never even read 'Roots'." I did some work in Laredo (94% Hispanic) last month and was told by real genuine elderly Mexicans that they don't celebrate this holiday. I was told, "It's just not a big deal here." Why are American children celebrating foreign, I think someone earlier labeled it, quasi holidays in school anyway? I bet they could be thought of the same way. "You're not a Mexican. You're an American. You've never even been to Mexico. I bet you never even heard of the Battle of Puebla." (for the record, until this thread, neither had I) I don't know where I'm going with this, except maybe to say that I don't agree with the teaching of diversity in schools as opposed to the idea of teaching assimilation and unity and that it may be worth mentioning here as having some culpability to what happened in that school. I'm an American too, so I say, "Fuck cinco de mayo!" (Unless of course, I'm using it as an excuse to get drunk.)
I'm PROUD to be an American. Proud that my brother in law and cousins have the courage to serve in our country's Military, and yes very proud to belong to the land of the free and the home of the brave, beyond that I feel both lucky and privileged. Would I be furious if I saw a person wearing another country's colors on the fourth of July? Absolutely not. I hate seeing anyone desecrate, ruin or disrespect our nations flag but I would not lose sleep over it no matter how match it bothers me. When I first read your post I thought you were either an idiot, 19 years old or just trying to get a reaction. I tried to truly understand it and I think I got your point. I always wondered why people from Texas were so proud to be from Texas, I wanted to visit it for that very reason. I'm from Pennsylvania, I love where I live but I doubt I would get to upset if anyone made fun of PA. I think you just feel that people are making a big deal about nothing, that if they let things slide and didn't get upset about someone burning a flag or being anti-American then it would be an easier place to live. It's easy to say this kind of stuff when your liberties are not being threatened. Would you have been proud if your Dad or Uncle was one of the members of UA Flight 93? Those were civilians who in essence died for their country. I was proud of all Americans the way we came together after 9-11. Of course there are numerous things I do not agree with, things that our country's leaders have done that I don't agree with or even understand, but that doesn't affect my pride. You should be happy you live in a Country where you can openly say (or discuss it with TIB) that you are not proud, in some other places a statement like that will get you in trouble. I'm not some giant patriot. I am old enough to recognize that I live in a country where freedom of speech is a privilege, a privilege that some Americans will fight for at every turn. I'm sure the soldiers in the middle east would be very moved by your I mean, I like cheering my country on in any way, and I try to be appreciative of where I happen to live everyday, but I can't take it more seriously than that. comment, but fortunately they have much more support than that. I'm not ripping you but if there is ever a situation when the liberties and things you hold dear may be taken away from you, then you might be allot more proud of where you came from.
I imagine whenever he walks into a room "Born in the USA" starts blasting for no reason, and somewhere a puppy gets its wings.
So this is probably getting too semantic-y, but why pride? You had nothing to do with any of that. I posted that vid because Mr. Carlin says it better than I could, but why do you feel pride for coming into existence in a certain part of the world? I bet everyone, even those from the loser countries (France), feel 'pride' for their country, but they did the exact same amount of work you did to be born in the U.S....which is to say, none. It'd be like being proud of winning a game of bingo, although you would have had to dab the ink blotter, which I guess is input on your part, so maybe that's a bad comparison. To quote Carlin, are you proud of your height and weight? If not, please tell me the difference between those genetic traits and the one you are proud of. If so, that's hilarious and we should grab a beer sometime. Actually, now that I re-read that, patriotism isn't even genetics. It's completely made up by people. Your country could have just easily been named Tralfamadore (well, maybe not that easily). Would that have changed your level of pride? As for your relatives in the military, that's great, and in my opinion honorable and ballsy. I've had relatives fight in wars too, but saying I'm proud doesn't seem right. I'm more...impressed, and to a much greater degree, happy they came back from said wars alive and well. Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled to live where I live, knowing the advantages and liberties I have are not globally assured. As I referenced in my first post, I feel guilty when I don't take at least a moment each day to appreciate these things and more (and this thread is helping with that). But I feel that way knowing I had less than nothing to do with it. I guess I can be proud that I don't infringe on other people's liberty, but I'd say my parents had way more to do with that than the name of my country. I missed the part of this story where liberties were being threatened. Isn't the consensus that these kids were being assholes? For what? That my Dad or Uncle chose the wrong flight? Sorry, pride isn't what comes to mind. I'm thinking I'd feel a combination of horror, shock, anger, absolute disgust and depression. But pride? A resounding fuck no. Now if I was on the flight, and my actions prevented other humans from dying, I'd probably do so with pride. But a friend or family member dying would mostly just make me sad. Call me selfish, but knowing they died to save others, while clearly honorable, would do little to comfort me knowing I'll never see them again. I don't get feeling pride for that in the first place, but...shouldn't that affect your pride? I know when I do something shameful or in some way wrong, it affects how I feel about myself, and it certainly keeps my pride in check, to say the least. Oh, so there are places where the demand for blind allegiance to country actually limits freedom? My bad, I thought we were disagreeing there for a second. See, and I consider it a right. A right that exists outside our petty attempts to control each other, and is repressed by far too many countries (more than zero being far too many). Am I glad I live in a country that doesn't, and stops those who try? Um, yeah. You know what I am proud of? My species. I know my part in our evolution is miniscule at best, but I can honestly say I'm trying, and I'd like to think I'm doing an OK job. I know we've done many things we shouldn't be proud of, but in the race to reaching a higher level of consciousness, we are absolutely shitting on the chests of all other species, and I'm of the opinion that going beyond borders and the names of our respective clubs is the next, admittedly daunting step. So in conclusion, suck it, dolphins.
The same species who gave us the Holocaust?? Or the Species that has been committing Genocide in Africa? I was much more proud to be a part of the nation that is/was trying to stop them. I am proud to come from a country that is trying to build schools in nations that are poor and run down and provide medicine to country's that have experienced natural disasters and horrifying act's of god. I was proud that my country allowed me to give money (seeing I don't have a decent skill to provide) to victims of Katrina and the Earthquake in Hati. I was proud to help. I'm proud that over two hundred years ago my ancestor's decided they had enough of being unfairly taxed and treated and decided to do something about it and fight for there own country, freedom and way of life. The liberty at question is the first amendment. These students felt they were being denied their right to express themselves. I agreed with the posters who said that these were kids and should be sent home to protect the safety of the school, unpunished. I did feel that they were probably decked out in America gear to antagonize the the other students but I don't want to be redundant and exhaust those points. I was just surprised that someone would say they were not proud of there country, and give the reasons you did. Your arguments are thought out and intelligent but painfully cynical. I'm not sure I would use a comedian to support my argument (I do love George Carlin) when this country gives him the format and liberties to make a living doing exactly that, his own little piece of the American dream. Where else could a complete douche bag like Bill Maher or Rush Limbaugh make a living (an excellent one at that) being a mouth piece like that? It shocks me that it today's news and society when you read about women in the middle east getting beat for showing there face or when an actress from Iran may be executed for being nude on screen that you are not proud to live where you do. Clearly you are glad you live where you do, to have the freedoms and lifestyle you do. I would just think that you would be proud to be part of a democracy that allows people a free an open existence to do as they please. As for flight 93 of course I would be upset and angry for losing a loved one, I would despise the Al Queda (which I pretty much do anyway) but I would still be proud of them for fighting, for saving the lives of innocent Americans and for unknowingly protecting an American landmark. JFK had the very famous and very well known quote "Ask not what you country can do for you, but you can do for your country." I get the feeling that you are one of the people who feels that you don't owe America anything let alone pride or gratitude. Please understand I'm not trying to pick a fight with you I was impressed with your arguments because they were well thought out and presented, I have just......well heard them before. I don't want to repeat myself but when the liberties are threatened is when you might feel pride. The military that protects our borders should make you proud. If there was a well publicized terror plot that was foiled would you feel a little pride then?? (sorry to keep using terror as a example but it fits so well) If something directly affected or helped you do you think you would feel pride? I commend you for having the courage to post something like that, you may get some Toby Kieth loving super R's who red dot you but I thought you did a good job presenting your argument. We will have to agree to disagree, remember I'm not decked out in USA gear or some crazy Redneck patriot......just proud to be an American, I love baseball and apple pie and I'm not ashamed to say I do.
As someone who wears my Israel Defence Forces and "Israel: Uzi Does It" (http://www.israeli-t.com/Israel-Army-t-shirts/IDF-t-shirts/UZI-Does-it-T-Shirt-2205) shirts to commemorate "International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People" and "Nakba Day" (when the Arabs left Palestine as it became Israel) I approve.
I might be beating a dead horse, but I wanted to chime in on this. Why does it only make sense to be proud of something I directly contributed to? Aren't parents often proud of their children? You can certainly be proud of things other people do, and in this case it's my fellow citizens (and in some cases, leaders) who I'm proud of. Honestly I have a hard time putting into words why it makes sense to be proud in this respect, but I suppose I would say I'm proud to be part of a citizenry that values the same things I do, if that makes any sense. See, now that is not the point at all. You seem to think that people are proud of "America" specifically, as if they're just rallying behind this name and this flag for shits and giggles. We rally behind the flag and America more broadly because of the ideals they represent, like freedom and the pursuit of happiness. What I'm proud of is living in a society that values these things to the same degree I do. To relate it to the earlier example, a father who was never involved in his child's life will probably still be proud that he turns into successful doctor/lawyer/whatever, and in that same way, even if I've never directly contributed to helping promote the causes this country represents (by joining the military or some other civil service), I'm still proud to be a part of it. Does that make any more sense? Like Mike Ness said, I hear your argument and it isn't completely nonsensical or anything, it's just something I have a hard time agreeing with. Again, people rally behind the name because of what that name represents. People didn't hold up signs that said "Barack Obama" just because they like his name. They valued what he stood for and what he wanted to do.
We're all just getting hung up on the word pride. I think it's almost exclusively personal, you guys are extending it further, feeling pride both in action and by association. I'm hesitant to do that because I'd feel more responsible for the negative actions of those on the other end of that association. I'd rather be responsible for my actions only (or my kids', god forbid), and be grateful when the action of others benefits me. Then again I am kinda lazy. Mike Ness if you take the word pride anywhere in your post and replace it with grateful, I think we'd agree and these posts would be cut in half. Having said that, I forgot how fun it is to splice text and argue with strangers, so click show if you want... NSFW I meant more the species who survived getting down to the tens of thousands, went on to fly to the moon, and has to learn to deal with complex notions like the prospect of self-annihilation. I'm saying I'm proud of the beyond minuscule part I'm playing in that advancement of life and thought, but that's all. Beyond that I'm only grateful. To be fair, I quoted Einstein first. And if you love Carlin you know he was much more than a comedian, and as what I would call an idea-advancer, I think he nailed it with this one. So what I'm saying is, I only feel indebted to my species. They got me here, not my country. I'm uber-super fucking grateful to be born in the place I am, in pretty much the exact same way I'm that grateful to be born in the time I'm in. And so I ask you, where's all the Time-Pride? Thanks, and likewise (except you'll get aging liberal hippy douches). So far only one rep point's been negative. Denver, go! Whoa, are you saying parents don't directly contribute to their children? I gotta read the birds/bees thread. But again, switch proud/pride with grateful in the rest of your post and I think we agree. I find it curious how often talk of pride goes military. I mean, you're being completely reasonable about it, but it was one of the first things you thought of. Hell, I disagree and it was one of the first things I thought of. But I say again, if I'm in the military defending people, I feel pride for the part I play (if my actions are pride-worthy). As a citizen, I am eternally grateful there are people in the military defending me. I'm not religious at all, but I can see why pride is included in the seven deadly sins. Are you saying you want to decapitate Gwyneth Paltrow? Don't be so sure. It's a pretty cool name.