Birth Rape

Of course. Everyone is aware of prenatal visits...please don't assume I'm an idiot because I disagree with you. But life happens--oftentimes, the doctor you've spent time with for nine months isn't the one present at the birth of your child. Everyone goes to bat mitzvahs.

I'm also well-aware of implied consent in an emergent medical situation. But disagreeing with the doctor about the handling of procedures/the neccessity of a certain procedure does not mean you have an altered mental status and anyone in a white coat can invalidate your decision to revoke consent for a specific procedure. Butting heads with your OB/GYN in the labor room is totally okay if you feel it is warranted.

Also, I mentioned 25+ students looking in on a procedure. I don't believe I ever claimed that all 25+ students made physical contact with the patient. And this one is simple--it's happened to me before. Twice. Happened to my Grandma more times than she can count--and she refuses to go back to the less expensive teaching hospital because of it, which is a shame. Happens all the time...just not to you, or to anyone you can think of. But that doesn't invalidate the experiences of the women it has happened to, does it?

EDIT: Damn it, Rabbit B., quit typing so fast.

My bad--I'm not expressing myself clearly to you at all. To the patient (who may have varying priorities that differ from this), her bodily autonomy should be of the utmost importance in the delivery room. To the doctor, the patient's bodily autonomy and the safety of mother and child should be of equal importance. I didn't switch, I just assumed you knew what I was talking about and thought I didn't need to fill in the blanks. Oops.

My point about the label of "irrational" is that such labels aren't objective. A doctor may think a patient is being irrational for trying to push for 30 more minutes when a C-section would make things all over in 5 minutes. That same patient may think that her doctor is being irrational for trying to coerce her into surgery when she specifically stated that she wanted to try delivering vaginally. Neither are correct, and that's why I hesitate to discuss hypotheticals where one party is assumed to be acting irrationally. Irrationally according to whom?

 

I think we have fundamental value difference here. I understand that you believe that bodily autonomy should be most important to the patient and that the doctor should think it equal to the safety of the mother and child. However I believe that both the patient and the doctor should value the safety of the mother and child more than the bodily autonomy of the mother.

I'm not saying that bodily autonomy isn't important, far from it, but I simply believe that maintaining life is of greater importance.

In that situation I'd totally agree. The only thing I'm saying is that the doctor should have the right to coerce a patient if it's for that patients safety. Not because it'll be easier for the doctor, but only if it's for the patients safety.

 

I really couldn't be fucked reading most of these posts, and I've smashed a couple of lunchtime beers, but as a man with what is supposedly a functional penis, here are my ill-informed views:

a) If I am with my wife/fiance/girlfriend/whatever as she is giving birth, and twenty five medical students want to watch, twenty five medical students had better be prepared to fight;
b) If the doctor tries to do anything that my sig other reacts badly to, I am going to ask him/her to explain to me why it is necessary. It should take 10-15 seconds to get me to understand the need for it but even still, unless it is for the prevention of harm to the woman/child then the objection will stand;
c) However, in my mind, the doctors are the experts and the main thing that needs to happen is that a baby needs to leave a human and both of them need to be alive afterwards; and finally
d) I will likely be drunk during all of this.

 

Condescending rampant breeders who feel some sort of entitlement for carrying out a natural process should probably shut the fuck up, but that's just my oh so humble opinion.

Also in regards to the other rampant bullshit you spouted, about "nothing during the process being attractive"...the act of rape itself is an act of power over the victim, not sexual excitement.

Are you SURE you are a female?

 

I'm quoting myself because I spent a good part of the day at work thinking about this while I was slinging hash.

My first line was bullshit, plain and simple, and I apologize. A knee-jerk reaction with no legs to stand on. That being said, I still think this issue is bullshit, if only because of the terminology being used. Rape is a fucking harsh term and it seems like this is only going to undermine the cause as a whole, which I think is causing a lot of the dissent here on this forum.

However, afterer reading up on the issue a bit, and speaking with a couple close friends about how they felt after giving birth, I've realized this may very well be a legitimate issue, which has gone largely unnoticed because it's just never been realized. I mean, how many of us tend to blindly trust doctors, even the ones we think are raging pricks and who've given us bad advice in the past? It's because of this we've turned a cheek and just assumed that all is right with the world when it comes to visiting a clinic or giving birth.

Truth be told, I'm still on the fence, if only because I've seen the militant side of feminism and it's not pretty. It's hard to believe something to be true when the sources you have aren't willing to listen and debate, but rather shout and segregate the genders. You can't expect others not to turn a blind eye when you aren't willing to speak with indoor voices and rational thought.

 

I have to say that I started reading this thread before work and while I was mostly on board with the idea, the wording is just too harsh for me to support. The debate that I've read since returning (gave up after reading this steaming pile of shit that I quoted) has just evolved too far from the original issue to be relevent for me.

I have given birth, with nary an aspirin. That shit hurts. I was ridiculously vulnerable and scared beyond anything I could verbalize 21 yrs. later, but my doctor was a champion. If I had experienced some of the things that have been related to in this thread (and I have heard of such acts from friends), I would feel violated and want someone's head.

Now, boo boo kitty (go) fuck (yourself), I have never heard such misogynistic vitriol coming from a chick in my life. I have no idea why you have chosen to expose yourself on this board as having of such limited ability to think and reason. Your personal issues are beyond glaring. The 20 yr. old male college students posting in this thread have made more reasonable points than you do.

I am drunk and pissed off, but I will address a few of your more offensive bleatings:

Because women = mother, therefore having the ultimate right over her own body.

Of course, all pregnancies are a result of rampant whoring.

You'll fit right in here with the faction of fuckwads who espouse this.

Nature has given us the ability to function through this trauma, not turn us into slobbering retards (fuck the PC word of the day).

Wow, just wow. Your understanding of sexual deviants is quite evolved. Calling on Pink Candy........

Really? 500 woman? What's your obsession? I'm 45 and I've maybe talked to 50 woman about pushing my spawn out of my vagina. Writing your thesis perhaps?

Speaks for itself.

DO NOT EVER SPEAK FOR ME.

 

I'm no medico-legal specialist, and I can't even profess to be any sort of expert on laws in your jurisdiction. But I'm fairly sure that in an immediate life or death situation the doctor doesn't need consent to perform a procedure, and is bound to do so without a legally binding direction to the contrary. Now, obviously, that's probably the extreme end of things and giving someone an anus massage probably doesn't come under the "life or death" category.

I'm a man, so I can't speak to this one from experience. I've witnessed the birth of my son*, and that's as close as I'm going to get. But here's what I think are my rational concerns:

1. On the law of averages, there's likely to be some instances of real technical assault/rape, some instances of crying wolf without justification and a whole ton of grey area inbetween;
2. You mention the word "rape" in the general direction of any professional in a position of trust and they are tarnished for life, guilty or not;
3. Woman will do and say some fucked up shit in labour;
4. In my personal experience the midwife was there at all times, and the doctor some of the time. When there's multiple practitioners there, are we really talking that there's a conspiracy of gang rape going on? I would expect that if a procedure was unwarranted, unnecessary or just plain wrong that one of them would say something;
5. If the allegation is raised at the time it happens, why is no one doing anything to stop it or seeking an explanation? If it's raised after, why? Isn't that somewhat similar to a woman going home with a guy, doing various sex acts without saying a word and then crying foul in the morning? A lot of doctors I've met aren't too good at picking up on subtle cues.




*Watching that freaked me the fuck right out. It was disgusting, and none of the years I spent on farms prepared me for that. If I ever have another child, I'm either exclusively up the head of the bed or waiting outside.

 

I was in the room for both of my kids, it was not the prettiest thing in the world, but I've never even thought about the births while in the bedroom.

 

Worried about getting raped while giving birth? Find a new fucking doctor! Or shit have birth at home with no help! Worked pretty well for people during the Middle Ages, except you know the whole dying thing.

 

Today at work I went and asked my very worldly boss if she had ever heard of the term "birth rape." This is a woman that's worked in Special Assault since '93, getting her MSW from a prestigious school. She looked at me and replied with a quizzical expression that she had never heard such a term. I explained what information I had gathered via this thread. Her response was simple: "I don't doubt these kinds of things happen and it's horrific, but I don't like that it's called rape. I have a feeling it's called rape because of the fact that the woman is in a vulnerable position and the whole birth process is focused on her vaginal area."

I do agree with her and what Volo said above. I don't doubt these things happen. But I don't like the way the "rape" terminology is thrown around so casually. To me, there's a difference between a doctor giving a pelvic exam to examine how far a cervix is dilated verses a doctor strapping down a woman and pulling a Hand That Rocks the Cradle by taking his gloves off before the exam and getting off on it. The first instance, from what I understand from the hoardes of friends of mine that have given birth, pretty much needs to be done. The second...one of these things is not like the other.

What I read about offenders committing before I interview them is an act of rape or molestation. A woman that's in the delivery room and manhandled by a male doctor (what if it was a female doctor doing this? Would we be having this discussion?) is bad but I'm sorry, it just is not rape to me.

Oh, and boo boo kitty fuck...yeah, um...something tells me a rapist isn't thinking about "attractiveness" when he decided to break into the home of an 85 year old woman to violate her.

 

Send these whining women back to Middle-Ages type conditions where they had no medical help , no drugs, no sanitation and had a very good chance of death during or after childbirth and see how they feel about the treatment they get from the people they have helping them in hospitals and so on.

 

I don't see what the big discussion is about.

I'm generally in agreement with pinkcup and the guy who said he's prepared to throw down if 25 medical students enter the room or a doctor is harassing his wife.

Some of the ignorant males on here who probably assume women are an alien species would probably call the doctor dropping trow and forcing his penis into the patient - "medical malpractice."

Yeah, med school is tough and it some of them are hard to get into, but there are an AWFUL lot of just plain stupid doctors, not to mention A-hole ones. I know them personally. I for one do not give instant authority or respect to a guy because he puts on a white coat. All I see is another guy who got an degree potentially because he saw the big ticket to money and social status. If he did it for the right reasons I'll figure that out soon enough.


Look, a lot of you who have done med school are talking about how its necessary to be 'paternalistic' to patients. Now look, if you have to restrain a guy to give him a spinal tap because he's a bit jumpy, that's understandable. However, if you grabbed a guy off the street because you think he needs a spinal tap so you give him one against his will --- get the fuck outta' here.

Same thing with these ob/gyn guys. I'm sure there are plenty of great ones. However, the hell with this paternalistic - you surrender-your-freedom-once-you-enter-the-hospital bullshit. I surrender my freedom willingly as far as I trust the doctor, but when I say stop, you stop.

I don't care if you know that I will get gangrene if you don't mend my broken arm. If I say don't treat it, you do not fucking treat it. If you do, I will consider that assault and defend myself violently. You can use the broken court system to make amends for once.

I'm sure there are tons of doctors out there with God complexes. It's probably where those personalities tend to gravitate. And if one of these egomaniac-fucksticks decides to ram metal instruments into a female friend of mine unnecessarily, or used unnecessarily large needles not even from the department without the proper anethestic, like some masochistic dominance-rape happy asshole (and if you don't think its rape, let me insert a pair of tongs up your anus and you can call me a 'rude jerk' in return) -- that doctor is going to be fearing a lot more than malpractice suits or the state of his bank account in about 30 seconds. He'll probably be pondering if its feasible for the rest of the medical staff on the floor to piece him back together properly.

 

- I instinctively don't trust doctors. This has come from my own experiences (82 separate doctor appointments within a two year span specifically to address either my vision problems or my intense migraines; not one of them found a fucking brain tumor that was occupying a quarter of my brain). I am justified in being skeptical.

For this reason, whenever I or someone with whom I am accompanying visits a doctor for the first time, I ask a few questions: how long have you been practicing, what is your experience in treating the issues for which we are seeing you, what is your estimated success rate in treating these issues, how personally confident are you within this field/these issues, do you understand my reason for asking these questions and are you ok/comfortable with me asking you further questions such as these as the need arises?

The vast majority of the time, the doctor in question is perfectly happy to answer my questions, understands the reasons why I'm asking them, and appreciates the fact that I am taking an active involvement in my treatment. If they are in any way uncomfortable with the questions, give answers I don't like, or show/imply a hesitation to treat someone with that level of skepticism (I understand I look like a malpractice suit waiting to happen), I thank them for their time and go elsewhere.

I recommend others do this. In fact, I don't know why anyone wouldn't. YOU are paying THEM, and just like any service, some doctors are better than others. Except it isn't your kitchen sink that's on the line, it's your life.

- "Rape," in my opinion, is the incorrect word to use. I'm not in the position to hypothesize which word may be appropriate, but I do believe that what these "victims" face is real. And just because "birth rape," otherwise rough medical treatment during the birthing process isn't seen as a large ordeal to some, doesn't mean it isn't felt as one by others. I survived what some may describe as a routine emergency brain surgery; for me, it was traumatic enough of an experience that I am dealing with PTSD as I've mentioned many times on here. But it is a good example.

- My wife, when we have kids, will undoubtedly be in a compromised and vulnerable position, and it will bother me because of my experiences. Fortunately her doctor is a family friend. But even given that, when the time is appropriate, I will directly question her about her experiences in assisting the birth of children, and explain to her my/our idea of "consent" and appropriate treatment. Beyond this, I cannot speculate what may occur.

- My best advice is to always be skeptical. Don't be rude, don't be inappropriate, but be skeptical and don't always just assume that because someone is a doctor, it means that they are a good/experienced/appropriate-for-you.

- In my hospital experience, I actually had many instances of med students viewing and even participating in various aspects of my surgery and care. In all cases, I consciously consented to and at one point even encouraged this. My thinking was this: they have to learn some how, might as well be on me. In one instance of a med student participating in my care (they were changing my jugular catheter), he actually painfully and rather dramatically and stupidly messed it up. I just laughed it off while the accompanying "real" doctor alternated between scolding him and trying to apologize to me. PM me if anyone wants more info about that

- Again, I'd like to reiterate that just because something isn't deemed traumatic (or "rape") to one person, doesn't mean it isn't internally viewed and felt as traumatic to someone else. Everyone works differently, everyone views life differently, and as this thread has demonstrated, everyone has different opinions. I think the focus should be on getting these "victims" the post-traumatic event treatment they need, instead of seeking to label or prosecute a group for "causing" it.

Just because my personal experiences caused PTSD, doesn't mean my doctors necessarily acted inappropriately or in any way put themselves in a position of malpractice (full disclosure: only two of them did in the events leading up to it -- and dramatically so -- but as the son of an attorney I personally decided against a civil suit because of my own conscience). Now, some "victims" of what they see as "birth rape" may have actually experienced malpractice, but that's not for us to decide. Agree with the system or not, that's for the courts.

 

Dear CaptainHook,

Your e-tuff guy impersonation is laughable. Your creation of straw man arguments is equally bad.

"I don't care if you know that I will get gangrene if you don't mend my broken arm. If I say don't treat it, you do not fucking treat it. If you do, I will consider that assault and defend myself violently. You can use the broken court system to make amends for once."

As a physician we counsel you on the pro's and con's of your choices in medical therapies. Have a debridement procedure or suffer sepsis and eventual cardiovascular collapse. If you choose not to have the procedure we have you sign a piece of paper saying you are going AMA and we are equally covered from a liability perspective and we walk away.

"Im sure there are tons of doctors out there with God complexes. It's probably where those personalities tend to gravitate. And if one of these egomaniac-fucksticks decides to ram metal instruments into a female friend of mine unnecessarily, or used unnecessarily large needles not even from the department without the proper anethestic, like some masochistic dominance-rape happy asshole (and if you don't think its rape, let me insert a pair of tongs up your anus and you can call me a 'rude jerk' in return) -- that doctor is going to be fearing a lot more than malpractice suits or the state of his bank account in about 30 seconds. He'll probably be pondering if its feasible for the rest of the medical staff on the floor to piece him back together properly."

What are you even babbling about here? Sometimes procedures are necessary, procedures are inherently unpleasant and as such we try to minimize the discomfort as much as possible but at the end of it there will still be discomfort. Also for your edification studies have shown it makes no difference if a needle is a 12 gauge or a 21 gauge the level of pain perceived is equivalent.

"I'm generally in agreement with pinkcup and the guy who said he's prepared to throw down if 25 medical students enter the room or a doctor is harassing his wife."

Go to a private hospital if you don't want to see med students. If you go to a teaching hospital be prepared to see short coats everywhere. It's a teaching institution for a reason.

"Look, a lot of you who have done med school are talking about how its necessary to be 'paternalistic' to patients. Now look, if you have to restrain a guy to give him a spinal tap because he's a bit jumpy, that's understandable. However, if you grabbed a guy off the street because you think he needs a spinal tap so you give him one against his will --- get the fuck outta' here."

I don't even know what to say to this... this is just plain fantasy. We treat patients that come to us for treatment, not randomly inflict pain on the population.