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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrFrylock, Sep 9, 2010.
FOCUS: What the fuck?
Okay, but it wasn't rape rape.
What's next Pap Rape?
I'm now even less looking forward to the anal rape in a few years when I have to start getting a regular prostate check.
I have no doubt that Doctors and midwives do shit during a delivery that the mother objects to. And frankly, after an Epidural and with a head full of gas, when the wall between your vagina and asshole have ripped open to give you one unpleasant and very uncomfortable orifice, chances are you might not be entirely rational. The medical professional delivering your child will often ignore pleas to stop/don't do that - because if they don't, you are your child will die - and the survivors will sue for malpractice.
Requiring a birthing license is the clear answer. If you can't pass a test that details an understanding of the fact that giving birth will probably not be fun, and your doctor may take steps to save the lives of you and your baby, that in other circumstances would be highly inappropriate, then your child and the human race as a whole will be better off if you have an abortion.
Scootah knows this from personal experience because he goes to clubs where people pay to have it done...
Scootah knows this from personal experience because his carpals are still fucked form holding his cousin's hand during her first pregnancy. An episiotomy is too messy for most clubs - it takes ages to put up all the drop cloths and clean up afterwards and people bitch that they want the medical space.
That, and a cloaca is just not a look everyone can pull off.
I had difficulty reading that whole article without stopping to masturbate. Its Pavlovian, someone says speculum, and I get wood.
I stopped reading when the author wrote "women’s groups, online forums".
It's an effort to cause a problem where there wasn't one before.
Yeah, giving birth is a hard situation. I've been there for a number of my friends, and once I was asked to leave because of some complications. While I didn't ask for details, I'm sure these complications involved doing whatever it took to save the lives of both the mother and the child, and probably involved penetration with any number of tools to get the job done. Now, that woman has a child and their both alive to enjoy their time together. Where the fuck is the problem?
Yeah, maybe this really is an issue somewhere, but it all sounds like a lot of mickey mouse bullshit. If you don't like the idea of going to a doctor or a midwife then learn to give birth alone, and when you die like the asshole you are, taking your innocent child along with you, maybe then you'll understand.
Having dealt with some of the hard-line feminists who plague academia, let me just say that to the people who care about this sort of stuff, if you're male, your opinion on this matter "doesn't count" we apparently don't have the necessary equipment to legitimately empathize. Bullshit.
But maybe I've proven their point, or maybe I've just watched to much House, but I'll echo everyone else. If its to keep the mother and child safe then whats the problem. If the doctor can't physically manipulate whats going on, whats the point of him even being there?
The last time I went to the dentist he put some metal instrument in my mouth, and I didn't know what it was, and he didn't ask if he could before hand, he just put it in before I knew what was what and the whole thing was just...bizarre, somewhat traumatic, I don't really know how to describe what was going on.
I think I was dental suction hose mouth raped by my dentist.
I fucking hate these type of threads--there's nothing fun, interesting, or enlightening about a bunch of dudes minimizing the experiences of millions of women and dismissing their concerns as unwarranted butthurt-ery. Really. It truly makes my soul cry. But since our wonderful new moderator decided to create this thread, I'm going to contribute also. Yay for all.
"It's an effort to cause a problem where there wasn't one before."
No. Just.....no. I know you didn't write this out of malice--only ignorance--but this statement has the potential to be hugely offensive. OK, I'll be honest--it offended me. This has always been a problem. It's just that the language used to describe this issue has finally been changed and that's what people are getting their knickers in a twist about. If you're interested in actually researching the issue (which I am 100% positive you're not.....no one wants to read about childbirth techniques/abnormalities/horrific experiences unless you're planning on participating in a birth yourself), you'd see massive amounts of things that can definitely be labeled "sexual assault during during the birthing process". You'd also see a metric fuckload of things that could clearly be labeled "Horrible and unprofessional treatment from the medical staff during the birthing process."
If you're interested in the PG stuff, start Here. Some of these comments are funny ("Look at you, you Beautiful Birthing Goddess!"), some are just WTF ("Oh shush! Stop making all that noise! I can see by this monitor that your contractions aren’t that bad!”), and some are terrible (“I’m surprised you even know what a condom is, being pregnant at 17.”).
If you want to read the story that sparked the debate on birth rape, read this. Fair warning--this doctor is a brutalizing control freak and it may make you upset.
This is a serious problem. I can post shit like this all day, and I haven't even had a kid. For every positive birth experience, there is a horrible one that leaves some women irreparably scarred and damaged from the experience. This isn't about some doctor not lubing up his hands before trying to manually turn a breeched baby. This isn't about not being able to adhere to your preferred birth plan because of fetal complications. This isn't about neccessary medical procedures. Let me make this abundantly clear--this is NOT about any of those things.
This is about women being strapped down against their will. Women being denied medication because they don't want an episiotomy. Women who do not want anyone in the room while they're laboring and instead are subjected to 25+ med students and their probing hands. Women who are woken up by a nurse forcefully shoving his/her hand into her vagina. Women who cry, withhold consent for, and try to escape from perineal massages but the doctor/nurse just won't stop rubbing their asshole. Women who are told these things should be forgotten/overlooked because, like, ZOMG you have a healthy baby so you should just STFU and be grateful, whiny brat!
Yeah, it's a fucking problem. Debate the terminology used to describe this problem all you want, but don't downplay the severity of this issue.
Reason number 132468763441364, why not to breed.
And what does breeding have to do with raping?
So me and the wife have had 2 kids and both times guess what, it was unpleasant for her. HOLY SHIT what a news story. But guess what; you don't get attention for long after having a kid so why not call the process rape to gather some lost attention.
Pinkcup, I just can't agree with you here.(especially since you made it sound like not having a kid made you more qualified to judge).
The "MY OB said what?" site ....well ok I read some of it. Most of it wasn't said by an OB to start but a nurse or a midwife. I saw one comment posted on the first page that was offside. And that should have been reported for professional impropriety and harassment maybe. Doesn't mean the standard medical procedure performed is rape then. not even a little, it means he's a dick that maybe should be fined or lose his license.
A bunch of the comments are simply people trying to put someone at ease at a shitty time, or simply said because well, "SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU ATTENTION SEEKING TWAT" really isn't allowed.
Having kids wasn't "fun" for my wife we had one bitch nurse throughout the experiences, but her doctor when doing exams was honest about "I know this sucks and it hurts, but I have to check to know how we have to proceed" And her doctor was good at explaining things. Not all doctors have the time, and not all people have the coherency to discuss at those times, doesn't mean it didn't need to be done.
When I first saw this I thought "What asshole is sneaking into hospitals to fuck people in labor, and HOW does he not get caught"
Finding out it was people wanting to blame someone for the discomfort that comes from having a child just annoys me. Perhaps there are improper doctors, but report it, sue, whatever. Don't make up a new sensationalized term that uses a word to describe it which is wholly inaccurate, that just makes it bullshit.
The problem with shit like this is that there is undoubtedly somebody somewhere who is absolutely going through that nightmare. Straight up probability coupled with the ability for people to be totally fucked up says that is a given.
It's the other 95% of the people that jump on the bandwagon and say "me too!", that haven't really gone through it, that are minimalizing the issue.
Then it's the media over-sensationalizing things to get that 10-seconds eyeball grab.
In the end it takes what is undoubtedly a very serious situation for a select few individuals, and blows it way out of proportion, tries to make it sound like it's worse than it actually is, and causes the kind of reaction we see.
Same thing goes for sexual harassment at the work place type stuff.
There are some women that are just very, very fragile, and immediately interpret everything as a full-on sexual assault.
We had one assistant in our office last year that filed a harassment claim against someone because that person would smile and say "hello" every morning. And that was it... she just felt uncomfortable with it. Seriously. I wish I were exaggerating.
I am genuinely suprised that you found someone who wanted to procreate with you......twice. You must be extremely good-looking. Congrats on the kids, though.
Moving forward and into the rage....
"But guess what; you don't get attention for long after having a kid so why not call the process rape to gather some lost attention."
WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK. I can only assume that you are intentionally trying to press my buttons, because this statement is unadulterated horseshit of the worst kind. In general, people are awfully quick to dismiss women's claims of being raped in the standard sense. You know, the forceful-penis-in-unwilling-vagina sense. It's why rapes are under-reported. It's why women have a hard time admitting to themselves that they were, in fact, raped. Because rape victims know that by coming forward and trying to report a rape, they automatically come under question. Their intelligence, their sanity, their sexual history, their behavior, what they're wearing, what they've been drinking, who they were hanging out with...ad nauseum. Personal emphasis on the "nausea." Truth is, women aren't EVER given the benefit of the doubt in rape cases.
So it makes perfect sense that the women who use the phrase "birth rape" to describe their birthing experiences are just doing it to get attention. Of course! Ladiez be attention whores, yo! ACTUALLY, NOT REALLY.
As women, they are well aware of the social costs that come with stepping forward as a rape victim. Sure, there are the rare few crazy people who make outrageous claims (of all sorts, not just with regards to rape) in order to get attention, but they are not the majority. Nor are they even a significant minority. These women wouldn't be coming forward as rape victims because their church group quit cooing over their baby. No. These women are not using the terminology lightly. It's clear that they must have felt terribly violated, physically and mentally, during their births and that many of them are still haunted by their experiences. To suggest that they are just being dramatic attention-seekers is fucking abhorrent and grossly wrong. That's the same sort of reasoning that's used to dismiss rape victims in general, and it's just as much bullshit here as it is in those situations.
"Pinkcup, I just can't agree with you here.(especially since you made it sound like not having a kid made you more qualified to judge)."
You're entitled to disagree, but don't put words in my mouth. I specifically stated that I can produce more than a handful of these horrific tales, and I haven't even had the opportunity to experience this saga myself. I thought the implication was clear, but if not I'll clarify now: Any Moms/Dads going through the birth-prep process will probably hear more about this stuff/experience this stuff more than I do. The point I was trying (did) make was that an unmarried, single gal such as myself is familiar with this issue because it's widespread. This isn't a smattering of awful doctors doing bad shit--it's the system of practicing OB/GYN medicine that disempowers women and opens mothers up to less-than-humane treatment.
"The "MY OB said what?" site ....well ok I read some of it. Most of it wasn't said by an OB to start but a nurse or a midwife. I saw one comment posted on the first page that was offside. And that should have been reported for professional impropriety and harassment maybe. Doesn't mean the standard medical procedure performed is rape then. not even a little, it means he's a dick that maybe should be fined or lose his license."
I'm glad you read some of it. Did you even bother to speed read through the second link I provided? I doubt I'd be having to point out your idiocy if you had. "My OB Said What?" is equal parts humorous and horrible--just like childbirth. The second link was simply horrible, though. No funny. As for which medical professional was making the comments.....I can safely assume that you haven't read through the entire backlog of pages, but let me assure you that I have. The split is fairly close, doctors v. nurse/widwife making unneccessary and "offside" comments. No one is saying that a comment--however "offside" it may be--is grounds for a rape accusation. No one. I simply threw up the link to demonstrate the sort of behaviors that can take place in the delivery room/exam room. It isn't a far stretch to believe that a doctor who says "There’s no proof that vaginal birth doesn’t cause some sort of brain injury! It compresses the baby’s head!” (p.28) will only consider a birth plan involving a C-section, regardless of the mother's wishes. I am not saying getting railroaded into a C-section is rape. I am saying, though, that this line of thinking can be taken to terrible places when it involves a doctor without empathy or a conscience.
"Finding out it was people wanting to blame someone for the discomfort that comes from having a child just annoys me. Perhaps there are improper doctors, but report it, sue, whatever. Don't make up a new sensationalized term that uses a word to describe it which is wholly inaccurate, that just makes it bullshit"
Are you being purposefully obtuse? No one thinks pushing a baby through a vagina is going to be all puppies and sunshine. It is generally expected to be the most painful thing you've ever experienced in your life. But the "sensationalism" of this new term aside--this word isn't inaccurate. It isn't bullshit. Your argument is, but this isn't. Many women want more than a fucking lawsuit--emotional and psychological trauma from a sexual assault in the delivery room deserve just as much air time in a court of law as a sexual assault in a bar bathroom.
You've made solid contributions to this thread, but I swear to god if I see feminists spell "ladies" with a Z in some attempt at smug lolcat-esque sarcasm one more time I will ban everything with a vagina within range of my ban stick (which due to the phallic nature of a stick will likely be labeled ban-rape, but that's another story). Nothing against you, it's been a pet peeve of mine for a while, but holy God is it obnoxious.
I just took it in the same way as "gurlz", when meant that they were post-op.
That not the case?