Re: Double standard on being single Lies. The standard is the girl is "just saving it" until she's 18. If she's still a virgin by 22, then she's weird and crazy and probably unmarriageable unless she's Mormon. I hate the feminist double-standard. Feminism is about free choice for women. If you choose to be a lawyer, you're a shining pillar of feminine power. If you choose to take care of the home and make cakes all day, you're a failure and an embarrassment to women everywhere. Men who smoke are cool and sexy, but women who smoke are disgusting whores. I don't get it.
Re: Double standard on being single No Feminist I've ever known, and I've been surrounded by Feminists my whole life, would look down on a woman who chose to eschew a career in order to be a stay-at-home parent. On the other hand, women (who are supported by their partners) who don't have kids who stay and home and don't work because they're lazy do catch flak from a lot of Feminists, and that's perfectly valid criticism. A whole lot of Feminists understand that equality means giving up old double-standards that worked in their favor, so they're perfectly justified in criticizing women who want both the benefits of equality and the benefits of old-fashioned values.
Re: Double standard on being single Wait, what? Not to derail the topic of this thread here, but really? If I got married to an executive at a major construction company tomorrow, and he said to me, "[Dcc001], we have to move to Indonesia because I have to manage the site for the next year and a half," and I agreed and quit my job, you consider me lazy and open to justifiable criticism? You're essentially saying that as long as a woman bears children it's acceptable for her to assume the full-time job of running the home. However, if she doesn't have kids, she's a lazy slob who's trying to have her cake and eat it too? Nonsense. If two people are in a relationship and one makes enough money for both, and both are content with that scenario, then it's nobody's business and no one has the right to judge. I hope I'm mis-reading your point, because for someone in 2009 in a Western context to say to women of the world, "Have kids or get a job, or you're discrediting feminism and traditionalism," is pretty astounding.
Re: Double standard on being single Wow, it's like you were there when I was having sex with a virgin. I still can't figure out why Muslims are all keyed up about having sex with the odd numbered virgins when they die. Double standards are ok. I know, I know, it's not popular to say that, but the fact is men and women are different, despite the crap that we're fed on a daily basis from the media. Like anything else, each double standard needs to be examined to see if it makes sense and why it's around. Some are really bad, and some aren't so bad.
Re: Double standard on being single Are you retarded? Trakiel pointed out a general example where the man was the sole bread winner and the woman elected not to work or raise a family. T didn't mention anything out of the ordinary like moving to another fucking country across an ocean where there is a tremendous cultural and languate barrier, for example. Here are some double standards: Let's say that a woman makes substantially more money than her husband. The couple elects to have children and the couple mutually decides that the husband should stay home. Many people would view the husband as being incapable of doing anything to provide for his family. Why is it that women are almost expected to take care of the housework and the men are expected to get a job? -or, to go with your example- Husband is an executive with a construction company, and wife has a job doing something else. Husband gets an offer to work on a project in Indonesia for a year and a half. The wife is expected to drop everything, quit her job, and move to Asia. Why are women expected to drop what they are doing in order to follow their husband's careers?
Re: Double standard on being single See, implying that without kids the woman who stays home is lazy is the double-standard I'm referring to. If you are essentially the definition of a homemaker, which I'm going to say is a woman who spends most of her time taking care of the home, cooking for her husband, etc, you will be looked down on for choosing that life, despite the difficulties associated with it. You can be a homemaker without having children and not be a lazy wretch who is taxing society, but if you're a woman with no job, no children and a husband, that's exactly what people think of you off the bat.
Re: Double standard on being single Yeah, I know it was a general example. That's why I brought up something specific to illustrate that there are many, many circumstances where a woman having no job within the marriage could be a neccessary thing, rather than her just 'being lazy.' Totally agree with you here. It wasn't part of T's post, so I didn't bring it up, but what drives me crazy about the Feminist movement is that they make no effort to spred the equality both ways. Yes, legally, men and women have equal rights and privileges. This does not mean that cultural predjudices have been overcome. I work in construction. It would be perfectly acceptable in everyone's eyes if I took a year off to have a baby. If, instead, my husband took that time off while I worked, he would likely be judged and his own career prospects might be hindered, whether or not it would technically be legal. I'm not suggesting that they are or are not expected to do anything. In my experience, though, men are typically offerred the bigger promotions like the one I just described (because men are typically the ones who work at a job where such a thing is possible, like construction or oil & gas), and often financially it makes sense. What I was addressing in T's post was his/her point that women can be justifiably criticized if they elect to not work or have children. Running a household is not easy, and doing it well takes skill. A true feminist would respect a woman who decided to make her family her first priority, even if her family is small and consists only of herself and her husband. A woman is not lazy or anti-feminist if she has no children and puts the role as homemaker at the forefront. *Oh, and I'm not retarded, but thanks for asking.
I lived in Miami for most of my life and the only part of my pre-college life that wasn't spent living there was spent living in Madrid, Paris, or Dusseldorf. When I moved to Georgia to go to college, I knew I was going to be meeting people who had a much more conservative upbringing than I did but, I was not expecting to be called a "sand nigger" while standing on a street corner, waiting to cross the street. I was on the phone, speaking to my mother in Spanish and I guess the guy thought I was Arabic or some shit (let me just say that everyone who knows me has no idea that I'm not Anglo). This was an absolutely baffling moment as, having lived in Miami and other places where people speaking something other than the nations main language isn't out of the ordinary, I was totally unprepared for any kind of racial slur. Now having lived there two years so far, I have to say that the South is a very weird place to live socially. As far as the gender thing, I heard someone say once that she didn't dress up for her boyfriend but, rather she dressed up for her friends. Because at the end of the day only other girls judge you to any noticeable extreme based on what you're wearing. I don't know who you've been dating but, I feel extremely awkward if I'm not allowed to pay for at least half of the dates. My ex and I dated for two years and I paid for most of our dates. It was actually a point of contention with us for a while because he was raised to believe that he should pay for pretty much everything and so he felt really uncomfortable with my paying for dates. I really loathe when I'm hanging out with girls and they talk about guys they have gone out on dates with just in the interest of a free meal. I get really uncomfortable feeling like I am indebted to someone or that the playing field is somehow less level. And as far as the hitting a girl thing, I have a few guy friends who don't seem to have a problem with hitting me back/ first when we argue. Only one comes to mind who doesn't.
Alright, let me clarify. I personally think if a person is not supporting a family and is not working - baring a disability or some other extenuating circumstance - that person is lazy, man or woman. Now, how that relates to the topic at hand is this: It's still societally acceptable for a woman to not work and be financially supported by her husband. The reverse isn't true. If you're a guy and you're not working and being supported by someone else you're a bum. That's the double standard. Times have gotten more enlightened, but the underlying presumption is still there. As far as Feminism and this issue - which is why I responded to Roxanne's post in the first place - that seems to be off-topic on the discussion so I won't discuss it here. I just get so goddamn sick and tired of Feminism being blamed for everything bad under the sun, especially when the criticisms contradict each other. I don't know where you all live but every Feminist I've ever interacted with has been supportive of women choosing raising children over a career (which is how the debate is always framed).
Re: Double standard on being single What do mean "unless"?!? If she's a Mormon, she actually IS crazy and weird. If that's the case, she's probably the craziest fucking person you've ever met. You're talking about the religion that believes in magical underpants and that being black is quote: "Curse from God." God, by the way, lives on a distant planet called Kelob where he actually fucked Mary to birth Jesus.
Re: Double standard on being single This is something only a woman would say. "running a small household is hard", yeah I run a small household, only one person less then the two ADULTS you're talking about, that should count as a job right? if you can name me one thing that a woman would need to do for her and her husband to warrant... I'll never post here again.
Re: Double standard on being single To be fair, you've only posted this one time, so that's not much of a threat. Yeah, you and I and everybody else can get by day-to-day and pay the bills and cut the grass and do whatever. When I use a term like "running a household," I think of what the women in my life have done when they became homemakers: handling all the chores, the renovations, the moving, etc. Sure, everybody does this anyway, but doing it well adds to the overall wealth of the household. (Sorry for the website; I wasn't able to find the original study quickly). A stay-at-home wife, or (presumably, the study didn't address this) a stay-at-home husband manages the house well, it contributes to the advancement of the working spouse's career and consequently the family's income.
Re: Double standard on being single Hey man, giving a good beej isn't exactly easy, takes skill and can sure as hell help a household run smoothly. Seriously though, I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the point she was trying to make. What I do know is as long as they aren't sucking up welfare and/or some other form of public aid that, as a person that works out of the home and a taxpayer, I contribute to, I could give two shits whether or not Mr. Smith down the street does.
Re: Double standard on being single Amen to that. But the rewards are worth the effort. Thanks for that, I lost focus trying to argue points. My original point, and hopefully this stays more on-topic, is that Feminists, or any group, should never look at a man or woman's situation within the family and judge them as lazy or freeloading, because you have no idea what the family dynamic is. This thread is about double standards, but I think - to the extent that this double standard exists - calling people who choose atypical roles in life (i.e. married, stay-at-home, no kids) derogatory names and judging them isn't something to be done.
Re: Double standard on being single First of all that study is bullshit. Numerous studies have proven that married men make more than single men. Now wouldn't it be natural to assume from there that men who have stay at home wives would make more... not because the woman is at home doing his laundry and making him dinner, but because men who make more have wives that don't have to work. Now don't get me wrong here, I have absolutely no problem with stay at home wives, god knows I've been keeping my eyes open for a rich woman to marry so I can live the good life since I was 15. My problem is stay at home wives (sans children) who act like they have embarked on some glorious endeavor and that keeping the house clean etc. is a daunting task. Let's call it what it is, you don't have to work, so you don't. Does that make you lazy in the eyes of some, maybe. Would lots of people do the exact same thing if they could, absolutely. As far as double standards go, why is it when guys are super into video games and star trek, they're nerdy, but when girls have the same interests, they're "down to earth". Also, how tight is it for us that when guys get waaaay to drunk everyone has a kind of, "oh man you should have seen yourself last night" attitude, but when girls do it everyone thinks to themselves "something must really be bothering her." And why do women porn stars make so much more than male porn stars. That's discriminatory.
THIS. A thousand times, YES. Feminism gets blamed for a fuckton of things, when in actuality feminism sometimes aligns with the position of those who ignorantly criticize it. I don't call those mouthbreathing, rascist, idiotic, and horrible people who hold up signs at military funerals (you know, the "God Hates Fags" and "Jesus Wants Your 'Hero' To Burn In Hell" people like Fred Phelps) by any name that they call themselves. Because they call themselves Christians. And since I know a handful of truly Christian people, calling those fucksticks Christians would be a terrible insult to everyone who sincerely strives to imitate Christ in their daily actions. In the same vein, this Mommy-Wars snarking so prevalent among women? It isn't being perpetuated by feminists. A true feminist--someone who believes that unthinking acceptance of gender roles is unacceptable, all people should receive the same opportunities/privileges--wouldn't judge EITHER gender for staying at home. Children or no children. You forgot community volunteer work. All of the stay-at-home parents/stay-at-home non-parents I know do copious amounts of volunteer work. And depending on the type of volunteering you're doing, it can involve unholy amounts of WORK. Like, the sort of work that other people get paid to do but they do it for free. Being a homemaker doesn't mean you sit on your ass all day and eat bon-bons, people. If you know one that does, judge him/her on his/her own merits and not on the basis of their occupation. Please cite your sources. If her study is "bullshit" and you know of "numerous" studies that "prove" stay-at-home spouses have no financial merit, then please post them. Until then, I'm going to take this as my cue to ignore your "natural assumptions" about things. Also, the implication that stay-at-home wives have married rich and live the good life is fucking awful. Do you even understand the kind of sacrifices that have to be made in most families for one spouse to stay home and raise children/tend the home? It usually involves clipping coupons, penny-pinching, and living extremely close to the bone. Obviously, a lot of people consider it worth the sacrifice because a lot of families choose that path. But it isn't an elite occupation only for those aspiring 15 year olds who dream big and marry Daddy Warbucks--it's for people who look at the benefits and make it work, regardless of how thinly stretched their finances are as a result.
Re: Double standard on being single Wow. That's about as thin a veil as a microsheer condom. I don't know if you've ever watched porn before, but first off: the women tend to get more screen time. Another: women stars tend to rake in the customer profit majority when it comes to the adult entertainment industry. I mean, when was the last time you specifically watched a porn because some dude you admired was in it? And three: how do you know they make more? I'm not even sure of that, and I've been trying to get into the business since I was eleven. Four: Please make due on your promise to stop posting on here unless you can back up your diatribes.
Re: Double standard on being single Wow, thought that everyone would get that that was a joke. but if I really need to defend my position that women generally make more than men, I've heard it everywhere, but specifically from Tyler Knight on the rmmb board. Is he a viable source? as for the married men make more than single men assumption... http://www.policystudies.ca/documents/A ... arried.pdf I would wager that this is due less to the fact that the men are married and more to the fact that the same traits that lead to high salaries also lead to you getting married, but whatever. Finally, call me sexist if you want, I won't debate you there, but I don't feel that "making a nice home" for a couple that has no children can be considered realistically a demanding alternative to a career. Also, man or woman, if you aren't working or raising kids, I don't want to hear about how you live a challenging life and have "skills." If someone out there legitimately thinks that a woman who stays at home while her husband works, and has no kids to take care of, is doing any real work... agree to disagree.
Re: Double standard on being single Does this study account for the fact that married men are often older than single men and therefore have probably been working longer, have been promoted more and thus make more than their single counterparts? Guys in their twenties are usually less likely to be married than a guy in his thirties or forties, and at the same time probably has less work experience and is lower on the totem pole than the guy in his thirties and forties who has been promoted a couple times and whose salary reflects that. I think your study can be misleading if it ignores the ages of the married and single men that it covers.
Here is a double standard I always find weird. We (America) constantly give shit to other parts of the world for eating dogs and cats and all other sorts of animals we like to keep as pets but if you ask a devout Hindi about our meat industry he would probably cry.