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Beat me and I'll fuck you

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Winterbike, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. Juice

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    1. Yes I have actually, its rediculous.

    2. And no thats not what Im saying. Im saying as far as martial arts go, a lot of people go the mixed martial arts route and less of the traditional practice route. Im not disparaging MMA fighting at all; as I said, I love MMA. And your claim about an MMA fighting go against a blackbelt means nothing, because belts mean nothing. Anyone idiot can get a belt in a classroom dojo. Take someone thats practiced (real) Taijutsu or Kempo or actual Jujutsu (not Brazilian) for years against an MMA fighter. The MMA fighter is going to get his ass kicked because his style is a derivative of theirs. A lot of styles have been around for hundreds of years and have stayed relatively the same for a reason. I enjoy MMA a lot but it's not the end all, be all of fighting.
     
  2. scotchcrotch

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    It's a hybrid of many arts and if your logic is correct, why aren't traditioal martial arts used in the octagon?
     
  3. Juice

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    One reason is standardization. Mixed martial arts is easier to standardize as opposed to a singular fight style. Thats one of the reason MMA is so great, because its easy to set guidelines so it can be made into a sport, it makes it easier to see who the better fighters are. A strict fighting style would have a lot of hits, throws, grabs, etc that would be considered illegal by the league standards, therefore the style would become ineffective on its own. Mixed martial arts takes concepts from all styles and is more dynamic, fitting the mold of a leagues' rules.

    Another reason is purpose. The original purpose of a lot of traditional styles was actual war-time combat. This goes especially for Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Kung Fu, etc. These were designed not for a caged match in a league, but to literally kill your opponent quickly with as little resistance as possible. Alot of older styles originally taught their students to fight to the death. Now this may be an antiquated concept for 2010 western civilization, but a hundred years ago and before that it was an extremely relevant concept. This is why a lot of styles developed in the first place. This isnt to say that MMA cant be used to kill or beat the ever living shit out of another martial artist, it can, but its purpose is different.

    Weapons. A lot of disciplines have heavy emphasis on weaponry in their style system, some much more than others. Obviously weapons are not allowed in the octagon, but some styles that put more emphasis on them would not work at all in a cage.

    Back to the original point. In a no holds bar match between a seasoned traditional fighter of lets say, Jujutsu, against a seasoned MMA fighter, the MMA fighter is going down. MMA fighters specifically train to fight in a ring, and will fight accordingly outside the octagon because thats how theyve been conditioned. Traditional fighters do not train with that frame of mind where they are confined to guidlines and will also fight accordingly. Its the same reason Randy Couture beat James Toney. Toney is a boxer and got his ass kicked by someone who knew more about fighting a style that has less rules than boxing. The same concept applies.
     
  4. scotchcrotch

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    You're forgetting the most important component- real world application.

    How many times has a traditional martial arts student used his techniques full force? Maybe once or twice?

    In line with the point system, you're comparing a discipline with lethal moves rarely performed vs someone who trains is less lethal means with 100 percent technique everyday.

    It's not about whose technique is more lethal, it's who has the greater advantage applying it in the real world.
     
  5. Viking33

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    By standardized you mean outdated. The standardization across every martial art is knocking someone out or submitting him (killing or disabling in "real world" combat) by various means. Why didn't any of these traditional "warfare" arts work against the Gracies back in the 1920's? They evolved their game to a level where other martial arts had no experience: the ground. The hybridization and evolution of martial arts has made most traditional marital arts ineffective. Muay thai was designed to take out riders on elephants and to fuck the Burmese up in the jungle. Why is it still around when people aren't fighting on elephants in Burma anymore? It evolved. It combined elements of Tae Kwon Do and western boxing to form a martial art today where it is still effective and relevant.

    If you've ever trained before, do you know why it burns so badly when you get choked out or your bell rung? Because it's an unspoken statement from the other guy saying, "I could have killed you. If we were stuck on a desert island with only our bare fists and nobody else around, I could have killed you." What you're basically saying that we as fighters don't train to fight to the death? Did guys back in the "glory days" die before they were knocked unconscious? No. Get out of your fantasy world.


    See, that's the thing. You don't get it. It's one man vs another man. You are surrounded by a cage. You have nowhere to run. You don't have a ninja ambush advantage. You don't have to rely on your 8' halberd to keep his greatsword away. It is the great equalizer: you have 30 minutes to "kill" or "be killed". Just like Roman times my friend but instead of BJ Penn getting his head ripped off after getting beaten up and taking a thumbs down from the emperor, he gets to go home, lick his wounds, train more and come back a stronger fighter than before. This is the first time in history when real fighters are given a chance to adapt on the fly. The mentality is the same, the practice has changed.

    [/quote]

    Vale Tudo? Have you ever seen the old Vale Tudo tapes? Go watch, learn a little and report back here with what you find. Tell me how many traditional martial artists beat mixed martial artists in the early days of the UFC. Randy Couture beat James Toney's ass because Toney was one dimensional. He was fat, half retarded and one dimensional. There's no concept there. Randy knew that standing and trading shots would be stupid, so he took him to the ground and made him his whipping boy. Bad example, dude. Try again.
     
  6. Racer-X

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  7. KIMaster

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    Heh, that's from a film called "A Chinese Torture Chamber Story", and it's a weird, random moment of levity in a movie otherwise filled with violent rape, dozens of graphic tortures, murder, and...exploding penises. Yeah, you read that right.

    Unfortunately, from my experiences in real life, Chinese girls tend to be considerably inferior in sexual prowess than the fine lady in that clip, especially if they were born there.
     
  8. Juice

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    Did you read what I was responding too? What youre quoting me on are not arguments on why traditional martial arts is better, but why theyre not in an octagon and MMA is.

    MMA fighters train with the knowledge that they are going to have to stay within a laundry list of rules and regulations set forth by what ever league they are apart of. Because of this, they train along those lines. Even if they are not training to compete and simply go out and fuck someones day up, it doesnt matter. Each fighter is not going and studying one style for 20 years then another style for 20 years and combining into a style all their own. Theyre training in different parts of a various of styles at once. They follow a preset list of rules and train however they want within those constraints.

    Actually I do get it, and all you did was restate what I said. The point was, you are surrounded by a cage, and you have no where to run. This is why you dont see other traditional martial artists in an octagon, because some styles put emphasis on weaponry.

    What do you consider the early days of the UFC? 1993? MMA is now and was then a farcry from what Vale Tudo fights were. The entire point of Vale Tudo originally was not MMA fighters going at it, it was a anything goes style-vs-style competition to determine which one was "better." Vale Tudo has evolved over the years, especially with the rising influence of hybrid styles, but it wasnt that way in the beginning. You might want to go rewatch those tapes yourself. And you actually read my point on James Toney right? Well go ahead and reread:

    Couture fights MMA. Toneys a boxer. Couture had more options on how to win because his fight style is much more dynamic than boxing and took him to the ground where Toney was worthless. If Couture had to the conform to the rules of boxing and take Toney on in a ring, my moneys on a seasoned boxer. Just like if a traditional martial artist has to conform his style to MMA rules which would be an unnatural environment, guess what? The MMA fighter wins. But in an all bets are off situation, an MMA fighter versus a seasoned jiu jutsu or taijutsu or Kempo artist is not going to last long. An MMA fighter is going to have to many variables to consider that they never had to before.
     
  9. thatone

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    Ugh. I feel like I've gone into google cache and found a discussion from The Underground Forum that took place in '99.

    The UFC has seen dominant wrestlers since the mid-90s. Think Mark Kerr and Mark Coleman. They mightn't be doing much these days, but they were beasts way back when. Wrestlers are usually tougher and more aggressive than competitors from other backgrounds, in my opinion. If you look at someone like Frankie Edgar, and compare him to BJ Penn, you will see one guy who fights like his ass has been lit on fire against another who would rather be laying by the pool.

    I used to do BJJ some time ago (an injury means that I run the risk of losing the ability to walk if I get back on the mat) and although I get frustrated watching wrestlers control fights by holding guys down & against the cage, it has always been effective. It isn't recent.
     
  10. Disgustipated

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    Ugh... To clear up some of the mish mash of bits and pieces floating around this thread (because I've been out caring for a sick 4 year old for a few days):

    - Kung fu has grappling in it (noting that "kung fu" is a generic term comprising what is probably several thousand individual styles, and the nearest approximation of translation of the term is "good effort"). Just because someone does kung fu, does not mean they don't do grappling. I'd hazard the guess that it's not in the kung fu you see in movies as it doesn't look interesting in the movies.... same as short techniques. They don't seem to translate well. For Chinese grappling, look up Chin Na.

    - Any fight with rules is going to favour certain techniques, practitioners and styles. Any argument about anything outside of this is going to be on best guess.

    - A seasoned, conditioned athlete is going to beat an experienced amateur more often than not, because it's what they do all day every day. For example, I would say I have more technical knowledge than most MMA fighters, especially in striking. But I wouldn't last 30 seconds against them. That's because I have a day job, I'm not fight conditioned and I spend more time teaching than training. Inside thirty seconds, it'd be really fucking dangerous though. After that, I would be gassed.

    - An idiot with a gun is more lucky than skillful. I'm not willing to wager myself against that. However, if he has a gun and I'm relatively sure he's going to shoot me either way I'm trying my luck. That being said, you can't defend against something you don't know is coming, be it bullet, knife or fist.

    - Many traditional martial artists delude themselves on what they're doing. Not many train for actual combat application. If nothing else, they miss one thing: distance. A picture perfect, full force side kick is useless if it doesn't connect. If you spend years training to miss, or just tap; your techniques are useless in a real fight unless you overcome your muscle memory.

    - Stop treating MMA like it's a new invention. Martial artists have been cross training since Shaolin developed itself. They'd take their style to a village and share. Then they'd have two and the village would have two. Then off to a new village. They'd have three and each village would have two... and so on. Many style heads train in more than the style they teach, including the strict karate masters who don't allow deviation in their "traditional" art.
     
  11. Viking33

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    Is this video accurate of what goes into Chin Na?


    How well does it translate when both fighters are on the ground?

    I agree to some extent. What do you mean by "training to miss" though? In my training experience, everything is full speed and contact and it's up to the sparring or training partner to make you miss or defend himself. Muay thai sparring happened at full speed with headgear, mouthpiece, wraps and gloves (no shin pads- you were expected to have your shins conditioned and your body conditioned to take kicks, knees and elbows). Even in bjj training, submissions are hit at full speed and you release or tap at the last possible second when your defenses were completely overwhelmed or you were on the verge of passing out. Even so, before we were allowed to throw chokes or submissions at Gracie Barra, we had to be choked out until we passed out to overcome fear of it.

    Mixed styles have been around for centuries but the past 100 or less years have been the first time that international martial arts have mixed in a way that most people can see and understand. I couldn't tell you much about the history of asian martial arts outside of muay thai, but from my understanding, much of the relevance has been lost with weapons based martial arts due to the evolution of warfare. Where you used to have spear and sword arts, you now have Krav Maga and MCMAP to deal with close quarters modern era combat. These were taken from judo, sambo, jiujitsu (Japanese and Brazilian) and several others; re-studied and made applicable to modern war. Even so, most battles are waged from miles away and even the "close quarters" battles are stricly gunfire and artillery with hand to hand combat coming as a last resort.

    Or jumping out of one?
     
    #51 Viking33, Oct 25, 2010
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  12. Nettdata

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    FYI, the current incarnation of BJ Penn is that of a scary motherfucker who has an insanely intense and focused work ethic and is taking training and fighting very, very seriously.

    He is a totally different person compared to the original (lazy) "Prodigy" of years ago.

    Just sayin.
     
  13. KMD

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    Oh boy, it's an MMA vs. traditional martial arts thread. Always such fun.

    Focus: I've fallen off really hard, but when I was a kid I used to do Tang Soo Do and Hapkido. Then I switched to Kickboxing on the side, and a little Shorin-Ryu Karate. I'd like to try Capoeria or Muay Thai seriously. BJJ would be interesting too.

    Alt Focus: God no, you can't see their faces and I'm not in an anime, so there's no rational reason for doing so.
     
  14. Viking33

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    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/10/2/1726857/ufc-123-preview-bj-penn-training-hard-for-matt-hughes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/10/2/17 ... att-hughes</a>

    It looks that way.
     
  15. Disgustipated

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    Saying yes or no isn't really accurate, in that Chin Na comprises the locks, holds and throws within a Kung Fu style. For that particular style, maybe. Personally, I looked at 90% of that and shook my head.

    A lot of upright grappling can be used on the ground, with appropriate modification. All any grappling is is physics and biomechanics hinged off of "fulcrum, effort and load". Many styles teach "techniques" instead of "principles". I feel that's why they struggle when they're forced into a new situation. Techniques don't always work the same, or at all, when the circumstances change. However, knowing how to apply the principles allows modification on the fly.

    First up, I don't consider BJJ or Muay Thai as 'traditional' martial arts, bearing in mind that Muay Thai is the progeny of Krabi Krabong and Muay Boran. Second, it's not a reflection on the art, but the way in which it is trained (especially in the West).

    Whether a style trains for tournament competition or just internally, a lot of them consistently practice "gi touch" or "halo" contact range. They do this either because of competition restrictions or because if you punched each other in the head all the time, people would stop coming back. If you do that often enough, and long enough, you condition your body to not sink techniques in. As an example of the competition rules, the next state over does not allow head punches in competition without a whole bunch of hoops to jump through, and not for juniors. Accordingly, tournament people train to not punch towards the head, and hence why I kept getting disqualified and now only referee (but that's another story).

    Striking arts are different to grappling arts in that respect. There's a ton more control and ability to quickly stop/release pressure when grappling.

    That's the important part of what you said. I do accept that massively international collaboration is new, but that comes down to the fact that until recently that scale of travel was not feasible. But if you want to just look at striking coming together with grappling, pretty much every culture has their own mix of that anyway.

    I think why it was a fairly unknown thing has to do with pride and territoriality, especially concerning the Japanese. Many arts (and I'm speaking generally here) position themselves as the ultimate, be all/end all martial art. Which, of course, they're not. However, when you do that you set yourself up for failure when you ultimately realise that you can't do everything. There are many masters of martial arts who train in styles that are not their own, but did not make that public knowledge for fear of repercussion from their students. This attitude is starting to fall away over time.

    With respect to weapons, you're right about the falling away of relevance. Now, it's more a stylistic/personal/traditional choice to do weapons. However, some old sentiments die hard. My Sifu learnt some weapons forms from a Chow Gar master. He was made to promise that he would only teach them to Australians "in case we ever get invaded and have to use them for real". They were deadly serious. That aside, just because something isn't practical in the street doesn't mean it's not relevant or useful. If nothing else, weapons training is fantastic for co-ordination, conditioning, strengthening and flow.

    The same principle is true of empty hand. Martial arts for 99% of the population is now about recreation and not survival. Of course that changes the goal posts. I've never once had to defend myself in the street (it's arguable that my training has contributed to never being in that position in the first place). However, I use the principles, adapted, all the time at work. Many martial arts think it's just about the physical which is so wrong. Anyone who doesn't believe that should go read Sun Tzu and then come back and discuss it.
     
  16. Disgustipated

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    Too late to edit. I re-looked at the video to see if I could point out anything that was effective, and none of it is. Every entry is ineffective and not realistic. Real people don't stand stock still and let you grab them. Even a lot of the follow through is bad, but some of it could be changed slightly to be more effective.

    As an example, at 0.32 of the vid the guy on the right snakes the arm and knees the head. I see that as bad application (forgetting the unrealistic entry) since he's standing in front of the attacker who is not off balance. In my opinion, a better way is to be off at a 45 degree angle with the attackers head and weight over and forward of his toes. From there I could attempt (as examples):

    - knee/kick the head from the angle;
    - pull him laterally down to the ground;
    - lift his arm out behind him while controlling the shoulder and make him faceplant (if he doesn't roll out of it);
    - lift his arm and control the neck to a throw (if I let go) or sit as he turns to transition to rear naked choke with or without hooks;
    - any number of other things depending on what he gives me.....

    This is accepting that grappling is like Chess. No one move wins the game, or is guaranteed to be effective in any measure. You just keep transitioning until you find a hole to exploit.
     
  17. BL1Y

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    Also just to clear up some of the mish mash of bits and pieces floating around this thread, kung fu (pronounced "gong fu") is better translated as achievement, rather than effort. The former includes accomplishment, rather than the mere attempt of the latter. It can also be translated as "free time," referring to the time it would take to become accomplished in such a discipline.
     
  18. eric

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    I'm reminded of this....

     
    #58 eric, Oct 28, 2010
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  19. ToastErr

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    If several men beat them up at once, does that mean they have to submit to a gang-bang? Or would jumping them not be the "sporting" thing to do?
     
  20. $100T2

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    I take martial arts with my wife and kids now. We just made it to our fifth belt on Saturday. Not really sure what the style is, except that the guy who teaches our instructors learns directly from Dan Inosanto, so there you have it. Pretty sure it's Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do.

    There's some traditional karate, you know, the basic shit, but I've done a seminar with Inosanto and the guy who teaches our instructors comes up from Florida and teaches some Filipino stuff that is straight up "End your shit right the fuck now".

    They are revamping some of the programs this month, and there are going to be some added weapons classes and advanced things for some of the grown ups so we don't have to wait til black belt to do them. We spar a lot, too, which is a lot of fun.