Age Difference

Again, the average lifelong cost of raising a child has repeatedly been estimated to be over $100,000 USD not including labor-hours and college tuition. Add in the cost of feeding you, housing the family, cars, etc. and I think it's fair to say that we are talking about a sizeable chunk of change.

Perhaps you can live modestly; if so, hats off to you. I'm just saying a middle-class life in the modern Western world on one salary is REALLY tough. It's far more expensive that it was for our parents, or our parents' parents. The idea of a stay at home mom in 2012 is largely an upper-middle-class or higher thing. Everyone else simply can't afford it. That is why I used the word "lucrative."

This was actually the opposite of my childhood, but sure, you are right on a societal level. That being said, it has been so or it is so does not imply it must or should be. The fact that other families have done so is not a compelling argument for continuing the habit.

Traditionally it has been this way for several reasons:
1) the physical fact that women have the kid
2) women generally have less lucrative jobs
3) stay at home mom has been seen as a societally valuable role while stay at home dad has not
4) for whatever reason (pervasive sexism in the workplace, value placed on being an active parent, coincidence) women have traditionally valued their career less

Only one of these conditions is (1) is truly necessary. While the other three are all still true, they are less so than at any previous point in time and needn't be on an individual level.

I'm saying you have pre-ordained which member of the relationship will stay at home. That is why it is inequitable. You have essentially decided that this is the way you want it to be irrespective of this hypothetical partner's philosophical, financial, and occupational situation.

Perhaps I'm protesting too much, and you're merely saying what you'd like on average. How would you feel if your partner made less, had a worse 401K program at work or less flexibility at his job, and was completely open to being a stay at home dad?

As for breadwinners, see above.

 

If you don't see the difference between desiring a person with qualities that you respect, admire and lust after, versus desiring a person because they are willing and able to arrange a responsibility-free existence for you, I can accept that you'd think any analogy would be poor and irrelevant. For the record, I don't think most women are like that; most would rather date a military pilot than a lottery winner.

...

 

I just want to date a woman who won't bitch about making 70 cents to my dollar. That pretty much limits me to those entrepreneurial 10-year-olds who sell lemonade on the side of the road.

 

Did you seriously just suggest that being a stay at home mom was a "responsibility-free existence"? This should be good.

 

The only immature part of this description is his failure to commit to a woman, as far as I can tell. It sounds like the difference between the two is how well they dedicate their talents, not their maturity level.

Let's compare apples: one of my close friends is a 28 year old man-child. He lives with his mom, (he was completely independent, but she's in financial troubles and it was the best way for their family to keep the house), indulges in entertainment that's considered juvenile like video games (he was at one point a semi-pro Halo player), sports and poker and he's had the same job for 8 years. To my knowledge, he's never had a girlfriend and is considered un-fuckable. To his credit, he is one of few stand-up men I know who knows what he likes, does what he wants and takes far better care of his family than most people would.

Another one of my friends is the same age, is on his second marriage to a girl he met through church. He has a shitty apartment and his finances are in utter shambles, to the point of repo's and having the police stop by his old apartment. He takes his wife and kid from first wife on picnics and goes camping, spending every possible moment with them. He WAS an incorrigible slut, sleeping with anything that would give him the time of day, but since he's been married, I don't know if that's still true. He's attempted to grow up too fast, marrying a girl he knew for less than 2 years, still an emotional wreck from his first marriage.

I respect my first friend for doing what he likes, perceptions be damned, and for being a stand-up, dependable guy. As we get older, I realize he might not ever slay a bunch of pussy, but he will eventually be seen for what he is and someone will like that enough to share a life with him.

My second friend I'm much less happy for, the reasons being apparent. His dedication is admirable, but ultimately a sham. Eventually, his fervor will evaporate and his boredom and apathy towards wife #2 will be a complete shock to her. He does nothing for himself, treating her like a princess, which is what she demands. When that burns out, their bond is more likely to break based on the stresses of finance, baggage and external responsibilities.

Who is more immature?

 

Here's Jim Goad's take on the subject.

 

Well, that certainly wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I don’t think the problem was failing to commit to a specific woman. I don’t think anyone has to commit to someone to be mature.

However, his thought processes on the matter were quite revealing. Here’s the actual conversation I had with him:

Belisarius: What’s up with you and Girlfriend? Did you break up?
Guy #2: Well, we were never really dating. I’m keeping it casual with her.
B: Why’s that? She seems really cool. (I’ve taught her and she seems like a really likeable person.)
Guy: She is. Whenever we’re together we have a lot of fun and I’m happy.
B: She’s a beautiful woman
Guy: Yeah, you have no idea how hot she is. (He’s right. I obviously don’t have the inside info that he does, but she is smoking hot.)
B: You just don’t feel it for her then?
Guy: No, I do. I’ll probably always feel a connection with her.
B: Then, what’s the problem?
Guy: Dude, she, like, wants a relationship or something.

He didn’t even want to try. He was afraid that if he did, and it worked, he might have to dig down and become someone more than who he was before. His work output was the same – an absolute refusal to engage, or to put his heart into it. He never worked hard to turn in a really good project, never really wanted to learn about some area that intrigued him. He was not only without commitment, he was completely unwilling to find anything that might inspire commitment.

Omegaham put it quite succinctly before. Instead of living his life the way he wanted to, in order to find a passion, he was terrified to find a passion, because that might mean that he would have to apply himself or grow as a human being. That is what I mean by immaturity. At age 17, it's expected. At age 25, I find it tragic and wasteful.

No offense, but they both sound pretty immature to me. However, I have to give kudos to the guy who takes care of his kids. At least he’s got that going for him. His new wife sounds immature as well (or maybe merely spoiled). And I agree with you completely - their bond is likely to break based on the stresses of finance, baggage and external responsibilities. Sounds like something that is not far down the road. That’s what happens when immature people marry.

 

So out of curiosity, what does Guy #1 in Downndirty's description need to do to achieve the coveted label of "Maturity" in your eyes? And don't reply with vague notions of "finding one's passion", because that's not good enough. What, specifically about guy #1 makes him immature, and what does he have to change to become "mature" if it's not simply reversing or eliminating that which makes him immature to you.

 

Again, what's wrong with this, beyond avoiding commitment? You keep telling us how wildly immature this guy is, but your only evidence is his refusal to be in a relationship with a woman you are obviously smitten with. You're probably jealous of him for that fact.

On the contrary, recognizing that you don't want/aren't in the right position to begin a serious relationship is a sign of maturity. I wish a lot of young couples that end up divorced with kids were as "immature" as this guy.

A very vague criticism that can probably be applied to 99% of the human population. Trying to connect it to the guy's romantic preferences is absurd, and shows how biased you are on the subject. There is zero connection between a desire for a serious romantic relationship and a person's attitude towards their education or work. None.

Maybe the reason he isn't working harder in law school is because he knows all he needs to do is graduate and he is assured a job at his buddy's/uncle's law firm? Maybe his passion in life is something different than being a lawyer, but he feels it's the best way to make a comfortable living? At worst, he might have a crappy work ethic, which is still completely different than being immature.

Again, "maturity" is NOT the same as "work ethic".

I have known many exceptionally mature people with horrible work ethics, and incredibly immature people who could work and study all day and night if necessary.

 

Yes, ma'am, you were right. For those who don't know, my wife is a pharmacist and the primary money maker in our family. She had a baby in April, and is back at work, while I take care of our daughter (and work a silly little job on the side for what basically amounts to gas and going out money, as little as we do that now-a-days). Her maternity leave paid her completely for the three months that she was off. Regarding age difference, my wife is two years younger than me, and we've been together since she was 15 and I was 17. We are a rare couple in many ways.

I actually read this thread while rocking my daughter to sleep, and found it pretty amusing, mostly because I've been dealing with a lot of that 'traditional values' stuff recently, about how the man needs to be "THE MAN" and make the money so the woman can stay home. For the record, if I ever told my wife she was 'weakened' by child birth, especially over two months later, she'd punch me in the face and divorce me. Strong woman, that one.

I'm generally catching a lot of shit from my brothers and others that I know to find a "real job." The problem is my field (teaching) of work in my state (Indiana) is unbelievably fucking sparse right now due to a ton of cutbacks. There are virtually no jobs in my teaching area within a 100 mile radius, and the only job that WAS open had 56 people apply for it, according to a close friend who is privy to such information. Long story short: I ain't finding a teaching job before the next school year, but that makes me "unmotivated" and "lazy." People with that opinion can fuck right off a cliff.

My wife works full time and makes six figures. Even if I found a full time gig, at most I'd make about 30 grand. If one of us has to stop working to take care of the kids, its me. We both knew this going into the marriage, and she was completely on board. Now, her overall goal is for me to find a full time job so she can go to part time (30 hours/week or so), and that is fine with me, but she fully realizes that if times are ever tough, it is her income that will have to sustain us.

I honestly think, though, that she feels a lot more pressure over it than I do. She deals with some judgmental bitches, mostly from either her family or a few acquaintances, who judge her as a bad mother because she doesn't stay home with her kids. Again, more of those 'traditional values' people. The reality is that my wife is an amazing mother. She provides for our daughter, and provides enough to ensure that our kids will be raised by us, and not by some nanny or day care. She takes care of our daughter when she isn't working, we own a nice house, and thanks to my wife's income, we've already started a sizable college fund for the kid. Again, anyone who thinks my wife is anything other than a stellar mother can just go fuck right off a cliff.

Ultimately, I think it is between the two people in the relationship. My wife and I have something that works. Moreover, statistics show that families like mine (woman works and is primary breadwinner, man stays home with kids) are growing in number. My wife and I have been building a partnership for twelve years. The only people who have a problem with her making more money and me being the primary child care person are people outside the relationship. The irony is that THOSE assholes are the cause of a lot of our stress, because they can't conceive of this situation working, and they make it a point to remind us at every family reunion or in every conversation that our relationship is "so weird!" and "I don't know how you can POSSIBLY make that work!" Coincidentally, they also couldn't conceive of a couple that got together in high school lasting, or that a couple that went away to college together lasted, but I guess my wife and I thrive on making judgmental people look like assholes who don't know what they're talking about. The only thing that should matter is what the two people in the relationship think. Are they compatible? Do they have the same goals? There are many, many routes to those goals, they just have to agree on one. We happened to take the less traveled route.

All that said, I can't really give a woman shit if she wants a man who can "take care of her," seeing as I have a wife who "takes care" of me. That said, if that same woman comes at me with a judgmental tone of "why do you let your wife take care of you," I'll tell her to go fuck her hypocritical self, and maybe define cognitive dissonance for her.

Now if you'll excuse me, my kid just woke up, my wife is sleeping, and I can smell her diaper from across the room.

P.S. if my daughter, at 16, ends up dating a 24 year old? You'll find me in prison for killing him. If you can legally drink, you shouldn't date girls that can't legally smoke.*

*U.S. laws, of course.

 

Forgot where that was from, but I did have a thread last year where this woman wrote an article in the NYT saying that women should just go to sperm donors because men are becoming immature, solely based on the fact that they don't want to hunker down and get married. Bullshit.

Not wanting to be in a relationship has nothing to do with maturity. That is a life choice that one person decides on and another person complies with. By that definition George Clooney is immature, Derek Jeter is immature. And if those two guys are immature, well fuck it, I'm not even going to try.

I love everything D26 posted, and I have to agree with KImaster, on his first point that maturity is knowing what is going on in your head and life. Also have you thought that maybe he's not smitten kitten with this girl? I've had friends tell me "Oh he's not mature, he won't commit." "Uh, maybe he's just not that into you." Because any of these guys who wouldn't commit damn sure would commit if Alison Brie or Elsa Patsky or Zoe Saldana wanted a relationship, they'd be all fucking in.

 

Perhaps this should be its own thread topic, but what is your idea of maturity?

I'm 21. I'm relatively immature; I don't think it's my fault, but I'm still a damn kid. I just don't have the life experience to draw off of. On the other hand, I've had people tell me that recognizing that I don't know everything is a sign of maturity. Well, what is it? Is it self-awareness, or is it actual life experience? Or is it a mixture of everything? I've heard maturity used for everything from a zen-like "knowing yourself" to "Well, he finally matured. He stopped making those silly drawings and started selling real estate. You know, like an adult."

Here's my definition - the ability to reconcile your desires with reality.

To do that, you need to know what you want, (self-awareness) as well as have a good idea of what the world is actually like (wisdom and life experience). The ability to actually make the two meet somewhere halfway is what defines a mature man.

 

Your wife wears diapers? That must be rough.

 

So regarding that age and passion thing? I say bullshit. School was never my thing and I was never hell-bent on getting super good grades (which highly contrasts with my girlfriend). The reason is because my passion was and still is, to be honest with myself, in my workshop in the basement. In my last couple years of school I put about 20 hours into my shop a week on average (and also worked at least 20 hours in jobs or internships). I got a degree from a good school and now have a full time sales job at that can be a bitch but pays the bills well and could lead to a solid income if I keep working at it.

Sometimes I wonder about going to gunsmithing school (specifically in Colorado) and turning my passion into a profession and be my own boss. But I do fear of alienating a great hobby/side gig while turning away from a good job with a lot of potential at a great company. If I ever come to that decision it will be pretty tough unless there is some big change in my life that would put me in the position to say "Fuck it, might as well."

As far as relationships go, I'm 23 and the youngest I've dated is 2 years younger, oldest was 1 year older. I think the girl 1 year older could have been the most immature of all. My current girlfriend is just 4 months younger than me and we met without any intention of a serious relationship a few years ago. It was when both of us were horny drunkards partying a lot and had no idea what we were gonna do. Both of us eased back on that around the same time and she's moving here in September after 2 1/2 years of dating (we've decided not to live together yet as well). She just got her Masters degree, has started working towards her CPA, and is starting her job at a top-4 accounting firm here in October. Needless to say she will be doing quite well for herself.

I've put up with being in a distance relationship for a long time because she is a great person and we get along well (skipping the lovey-dovey stuff). We're on-par "establishment" wise and it hasn't really been a consideration for me because the whole "dependency" thing won't be an issue to either of us for the forseable future. It's not why I'm dating her, but I'm not complaining.

 

The problem is that there are several definitions of maturity that people think about and use interchangably under the assumption that they are more heavily correlated than they really are.

A few of them being:
(1) Completion of the typical landmarks of American adulthood at an appropriate age. For example, owning a house, finishing school, settling down, marriage, kids, having a stable and decent-paying job.
(2) A certain refinement in taste and habits, i.e. "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."*
(3) Self-knowledge as far as your own priorities, desires, and tendencies.
(4) A good understanding of how the world and specifically other people work, and how to basically play well with others.

People operate under the assumption that (1) and (2) are good markers for other, deeper senses of the word, and they're probably right more often than not. People care about (2) not so much because it is a good thing in and of itself, but because they think it implies (3) and (4). The deeper senses of maturity are hard to read quickly, so people tend to use the first two as a heuristic for it. Maybe it works sometimes, but in my experience it is fairly unreliable as a marker.




* There is also the CS Lewis retort to this idea:

 

For me, one of the most mature things I do is play video games.

Which isn't to say that I'm a gamer, or that gaming makes me more mature or that there is any maturity association with video games.

As an adult, I've made some fiscally responsible decisions about how I spend my disposable income and how I allocate some of those funds in relation to my leisure time. I spend a moderate amount of my free time utilizing the things I spent that money on to play video games - a recreational past time that is less unhealthy than many others and provides me with enjoyment and relaxation well in proportion to the financial and time costs associated.

I don't think that maturity is associated with particular acts. You're not mature because you smoke cigars while drinking scotch and playing poker in a dignified lounge. You're not mature because you maintain the outward trappings of a responsible family man in a conventional family. You're mature when you make balanced choices about your life and understand the implications of those choices both to you, and to others who are impacted by those choices.

When I look for someone to find relationship compatibility, whether that relationship is long term or short term, casual or significant, or really even just close friendship - I'm looking for someone who has the maturity to understand the repercussions of choices. To understand how their choices impact themselves and others, and the maturity to make considered choices with that understanding. Being a good person about how they make decisions based on those considerations is more subjective. But the thing I really look for is the maturity to understand how decisions impact lives. If you haven't had to live with bad decisions and if you haven't gained the intrinsic associative understanding of what it is to live with those decisions? I can't imagine what we'd have to talk about.

I think a conscious decision to NOT commit is sometimes a far more mature decision. If you recognize that all the factors of your life and your situation makes establishing a committed relationship a bad idea - the most mature option is clearly to not commit. If your partner is fine with that and you're both happy to continue without a committed relationship because you both consider it the more balanced and healthy path forward? That's by far more mature and responsible option.