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2009 NBA Season

Discussion in 'Sports Board' started by El Tee, Oct 19, 2009.

  1. T W

    T W
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    That won't be easy. What OKC has created is something out of this world. Multiple top 5 draft picks in consecutive years, and one of them is turning out to be the most prolific scorer in a generation. If they can secure a cheap/young defensive minded 2 or 3 that can actually shoot ala Nicolas Batum (James Harden might actually be ready for this role this time next year), and a secure post presence ala Joakim Noah (that feels weird to say), then this team is an immediate contender for the title in 2010/11. Westbrook is underrated, and as good as D. Rose, and like I said Durant is just scary g'damn good. He's 21, already a superstar, and already a better all around shooter than Kobe, Bird, Jordan, etc ever were. And ALL he cares about is music, chilln' with his teammates, and getting better at basketball. This kid is going to do some special things in the next decade.
     
  2. Mike Ness

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    This is about as perfect a post on the situation as you can get. Lebron and Kobe are constantly compared because they are the two best in the NBA, bar none. I actually checked TW's facts and he's right LeBron is the man you want shooting your last shot. I know everyone will hammer me because the King has no rings but I will bet my life that the championships are coming. I really, really thought Kobe was the better clutch player but the stats don't lie, he does have the rings though.

    People don't realize or just don't want to say it but Kobe is poised to have better numbers than MJ. He is already at 25,000 points and I would think he's got 4-5 years left in him. At least. If the Laker's snag another title I don't know how he couldn't be considered as one of the best of all time, MJ, Wilt and Kobe. Even more surprising if LeBron keeps scoring like he is and grabs 3 or 4 titles you'll have to put him in that sentence as well, (of course there is allot of speculation there but the king doesn't look to be slowing down)

    Sad thing is this is kind of the problem with the NBA. Unless you have the Bryant, The LeBron, Wade you have no shot at a title. The emergence of Dwight Howard was one of the most exciting things to happen in the NBA in years. You could use Boston as an example but they have two of the NBA's top twenty players, you really don't have to watch regular season NBA you can watch sports center and wait for the playoffs.

    Oh who knows I'm probably jaded, I'm a sixers fan. *sigh*
     
  3. Samr

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    And in response to a rep from Mike Ness:

    I am excited to see the Spurs in rebuilding mode. I am excited to see where Hill and Blair will take them. I want to see who they find to put around them. Hell, I might actually be able to stomach some of the regular season games this season if I know that the team is actually working to improve, not to simply stumble to the finish. Some of the most fun I had as a fan was the year David Robinson went down and the Spurs featured Dominique Wilkins, Vernon Maxwell, and Monty Williams. Mario Ellie, before he got his big contract and gave up playing, was one of my favorite players of all time.
     
  4. El Tee

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    What the fuck? If this is the basis for your line of reasoning then you need to stop associating yourself with other Spurs fans. I don't know if you're saying this just to seem contrary or if you have fond memories of discounted Alamodome tickets when they went 20-62, but whatever the reason I can assure your feelings are not shared by 99% of the Spurs' faithful.

    This season has been frustrating for a few reasons, but the biggest one is Pop's schizophrenic rotations. Using 20+ starting lineups with no seeming rhyme or reason has probably been just as hard on the players as it has been on the fans. Nothing is more evident of this than for the first time in history veteran players are looking to get out of San Antonio and making it known publicly. No one missed Marcus Haislip when he bolted, but when both Michael Finley and Roger Mason approached Pop/Buford with their desire to play elsewhere it was the biggest thing to a scandal San Antonio has had since Derek Anderson got himself run out of town. The last week has actually been a good one, since the Spurs seem to have settled on a plan of attack that features Manu and RJ coming off the bench with Roger Mason riding the pine. The upside - if you choose to see one - of Parker's hand injury is that Mason will move into a starting lineup that was already producing fewer points than a bench squad of Ginobili/Jefferson/Blair. Roger Mason is playing for his livelihood now (the Spurs aren't going to resign him for anything near what he is asking, and likely not at all) and with the opportunity to play serious minutes he has a chance to show other teams with lots of LeBron-fueled cap room that he might be worth sloppy-seconds millions. The other good news is that since the injury is to Parker's hand, his conditioning shouldn't drop off but his foot and hip issues also get a month of downtime and he'll be as good as he can possibly be when the playoffs start.

    And yes, I do think they'll make the playoffs in or around the spot they're in right now. With Dallas playing out of their minds right now the Spurs' chances for a top 4 seed is nearly out of reach, but holding serve and playing .500 ball the rest of the way should assure them a spot. It should be only slightly harder without Parker but truth be told the Spurs' lot in life right now is squarely in the hands of the welcomely resurgent Manu Ginobili. With Popovich, the five who start the game are far less important than the five who finish, and Duncan-Ginobili-Jefferson-Hill-McDyess is pretty damn good.
     
  5. Samr

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    That's not the basis of my reasoning; out of context it was a poor example.

    Spurs fans knew we'd have Robinson back (no pun intended) the next season; we knew that season was a wash; we knew we might actually find something in the lottery. Of course, that season is forever in my memory seen through rose-colored glasses because of the pure elation I felt when the Spurs improbably got the number one pick.

    My point in using that example, if albeit poor, was in saying that fans knew it wasn't going to end well, just as we understand that this season won't end well. But there's a ton of expiring contracts in the next few years, and the Spurs have some tradable pieces. When what you're facing is certain failure, it's nice, at least, to know that there's a decent chance of something better eventually coming of it.
     
  6. T W

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    I need to put this out here in case anyone had any doubts. Kobe is not NEARLY as good as Jordan was. Jordan's stats, awards, and team success all dwarf Kobe's. If you want to compare lifetime stats, then this would be the most appropriate year to do it, because they both have played roughly 14 full seasons (have to remember that Jordan retired during the prime of his career, TWICE). Although regardless, he's not going to be able to accrue the resume that MJ had.

    So let's take a look at it. In the same amount of years that Kobe has currently played, Jordan had 6 NBA championships (Kobe 4, 3 of them as the second option on the team), 10 scoring titles (Kobe has 2), 5 MVP awards (Kobe has 1), was a 6x NBA Finals MVP (Kobe has 1), was a ten time All NBA First Team selection (Kobe had 7), 9x All NBA First Team selection (Kobe had 7), and was the Defensive POY once (none for Kobe).

    Stats wise:

    Mike averaged: 30.1 pts (49.7%), 6.2 reb, 5.3 ast, 2.3 stl, 0.8 blk, 2.7 TO's, 27.9 PER

    Kobe averages: 25.3 pts (45.5%), 5.3 reb, 4.7 ast, 1.5 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.9 TO's, 23.6 PER

    I bolded who had the better numbers in each category...
    Besides shooting range, Jordan was better than Kobe at every facet of basketball. They are not comparable, and Kobe, even if he wins three more titles, is just simply not in the GOAT's class... Lebron has a chance to eclipse him someday, but I have a feeling that's going to be largely subjective regardless. But Kobe, objectively (although great, and a top 15 player all time), has no chance to be considered in his class.
     
  7. Mike Ness

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    Mike averaged: 30.1 pts (49.7%), 6.2 reb, 5.3 ast, 2.3 stl, 0.8 blk, 2.7 TO's, 27.9 PER

    Kobe averages: 25.3 pts (45.5%), 5.3 reb, 4.7 ast, 1.5 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.9 TO's, 23.6 PER

    [/quote]

    You only put the season averages. The Hall greatly takes into consideration all time numbers Please understand I am not arguing Kobe is better than MJ, not even close. Kobe has at least five years left to continue to rack up numbers, he will end up much higher than a top fifteen player of all time. He has a good chance of cracking the top five. That is if he plays the same way he has been playing without injuries, ect.
     
  8. T W

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    I get your point, fair enough. But I'm not sure why you mentioned The Hall of Fame? Obviously Kobe is in it, but what does that have to do with how he is perceived in comparison to the true legends? With the Lakers team makeup the way it is right now, to go along with the pending free agency that is going to create a insta-contender or two out of thin air and up and coming teams in Portland, OKC, etc., I don't see him winning more than 1 or 2 more titles max (which I think is more important than cumulative career stats when evaluating greatness, though less important than career averages of stats, especially the advanced ones that are a bit more objective like PER, win-share, etc).

    Example, John Stockton had over 15,000 career assists (first all time) to Magic's 10,000 (due to a shortened career) and 3,200 steals (first all time) to Magic's 1,700, but even after their careers are said and done, you will not find a person out there who would contend that Stockton was a better point guard than Magic.

    The top 5 to me are Bird, Magic, Wilt, Bill Russel and Jordan, and I don't care how many years longer he plays (remember he's of special wave who came straight out of high school, and has never retired in his prime...) to accrue total stats, he still didn't have the impact on the league like any of those 5, and can't be considered on any of their levels imo.
     
  9. El Tee

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    Uhh, okay. I can appreciate that there was the promise of the return of Robinson, Elliott, et al. + lottery pick coming after that horrible season so it was sort of easier to stomach the 20-62 record...but the rest of what you're saying is losing me. If I remember correctly, you insinuated that the Spurs rebuilding would take place around the presumptive duo of George Hill and DeJuan Blair. But then if those guys are supposed to stay...who are these tradable pieces you're talking about? Tony Parker and Richard Jefferson? I suppose, though after that the pickings are slim considering the only other players under contract past this summer are the aforementioned youngsters and two veterans named Tim Duncan and Antonio McDyess. That's hardly a "ton".

    Also consider this: as long as Gregg Popovich is calling the shots the Spurs are going to be a team that favors skill over potential (see: Jackie Butler and Ian Mahinmi). The odds of another player of Tim Duncan's franchise-changing caliber coming out of any future draft is increasingly slim and the Spurs' chances of landing said mythical player is even slimmer. Rather, it's more likely the Spurs are going to attempt to build a new core of talent with experienced overseas players (remember, both Parker and Ginobili played pro ball before the NBA) and college players with more than one season of ball...like George Hill. Spurs fans may well be cheering for guys named Tiago and Nando in the next several years, but neither one of those guys falls into any kind of overnight strategy of rebuilding.

    The Spurs have only ever had one overnight wholesale change, and that came in 1989 when they brought in Terry Cummings and Mo Cheeks to play along David Robinson. Everything since then, especially since Pop came on board in 1994, has been gradual. Don't expect any kind of fire sale after this season, since I fully expect Ginobili will play his way into a four-year contract during the playoffs. Parker may bolt after next summer, but with Duncan certain to finish out in SA the transition to a team of guys like Hill, Blair, Splitter, and DeColo is going to happen over the course of a couple of seasons, not a single summer.
     
  10. Samr

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    I read somewhere that Splitter may very well stay in Europe for a few more years? I'll find the article later, but it basically said several of the other Europe powerhouses might start a bidding war for his services.

    Pop et. al. broke my heart with Scola, and on the current roster, Mahinmi (who could actually be one hell of a ball player if the Spurs actually gave him two shits of a chance), so I'll believe it when I see it in regard to DeColo/Splitter.
     
  11. Mike Ness

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    I don't know why I put "hall" just stupid. I meant sports writers, critics, fans in general that make the "all time" statements. I get your point about Stockton but remember zero rings, I would never compare him to Magic.

    Let me get something straight, first I love this type of discussion it's always good to have a solid debate rather than neg repping or insulting a board member (even when I'm clearly losing the argument) and secondly I really don't like Kobe Bryant that much!!

    That being said at the end of his career I think you may be able to say he was better than Magic or Bird. He didn't change basketball like they did, nor did he save the NBA like they did but his stats, MVP's and rings are all within reach or better than the fore mentioned players.
    (If any of you get a chance watch HBO's Magic vs. Bird documentry, it's excellent) He won't eclipse MJ or Wilt but if he adds 4-5 strong seasons to his legacy I think we will see him talked about as a top 5 player.

    What I think is more crazy is how many people are already saying LeBron will be a top five player. Don't get me wrong I know he is beyond talented but he hasn't won a ring yet. Will he? I would bet my life on it, but to be mentioned as "best ever" you need more than one championship and he is so young in his career you never know what could happen.

    I do think LeBron could be the best player the NBA has seen, but he has a long way to go.
     
  12. Puffman

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    My feeling on the best players in the game is if they did not change the game in some way then they do not deserve to be mentioned as one of the greats.

    Wilt Chamberlin forced the widening of the lanes in basketball. Bill Russell forced offensive teams to not send all players to the basket after a missed shot. Oscar Robertson forced teams to have account for guards going to the basket and rebounding. Kareem forced college basketball to outlaw dunking for almost 20 years. David Thompson forced teams to try and defend the ally oop pass. Magic and Bird reintroduced the idea of a team game back to the NBA so I will give them their due. Michael Jordan showed you could be a great scorer and defender.

    I do not see how Kobe has changed the game , so while he may be a hall of famer, he will never make my top 10.
     
  13. El Tee

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    You mean the same Ian Mahinmi that had three turnovers in five minutes last night?

    Dude, I want to like you because you have DeJuan Blair as your avatar but you keep trying to pass off pedantic criticism as actual thought. Mahinmi has had three years to show the Spurs he's worth the trouble and he hasn't done it. I trust that Pop and Buford have been paying more attention to their million-dollar investment than you have so and thus I trust their opinion of his skills more than yours.

    And did Pop et. al. (sic) really break your heart when they traded Scola's draft rights to Houston? Are you still upset they got rid of Leandro Barbosa too?* Do you have any memory of the context in which they did it? The Spurs had been trying to bring Scola over for years but the price of his buyout in Europe meant he'd basically be playing for free in the States. That sounds like a good deal for us but it would have been financial suicide for him. By the time he was ready to bite the cash bullet and come over the Spurs had no spot for him in their rotation (they'd just won a championship) but rather than let him rot overseas indefinitely the Spurs did the decent thing and let Houston deal with him for the very low price of Jackie Butler's useless carcass.

    Does it suck to see Scola doing well for Houston? I guess, but he's not playing behind Tim Duncan over there so it's not like you can cut and paste his stats in San Antonio and assume success (see: Richard Jefferson). But don't delude yourself into thinking the Spurs made some kind of Isiah Thomas blunder when all they did was make a cost/benefit analysis that hasn't exactly bankrupted their franchise or buried them in the lottery.

    *Another widely-believed fallacy.
     
  14. Mike Ness

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    I'm not really sure how I follow this. Magic and Bird didn't change basketball, I realize you say they reintroduced team ball but they didn't change anything. There were guys who could score and defend before Jordan so I'm not following that either. Not too mention that is not how MJ changed the NBA at all.

    I guess there can be no one who can crack your top ten then because how else can you change the game? I guess you would have to put Shaq and Mutumbo in your top five as well because of them the NBA instituted defensive 3 seconds. Changing the game is important but there is allot to be said for dominating the game as well. Kobe was without question one of the best players of his time and he is going to continue to dominate record books.

    I can probably list allot of other players who changed the game that we do not even think of. Wilt and Kareem dominated the game period. What does college ball have to do with anything?? I see the point you are trying to make but there are way to many loop holes.

    It's funny because fans will not come out and admit that they do not like Kobe. It absolutely has an affect on this argument. He could very well be the top scorer of all time and you wouldn't have him in your top ten? Because he didn't change the game? That's ridiculous.
     
  15. T W

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    I personally don't hate Kobe, I actually love watching him play, but I'd say I do resent a bit how lauded he is. I guess that growing up during the MJ era, something about him will always just ring as Jordan-lite. He was just not quite as good a scorer, never as good a winner, never quite as clutch http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm, never the defender Jordan was, nothing. But yet he has all the same intangibles as MJ, just never as good at any of them.

    Shaq is greater than Kobe, he OWNED the league for a half a decade, and this will be especially true if the Cavs can win it this year with him stepping up big against the likes of Howard in the ECF's and Bynum or Heywood/Dampier in the Finals. Hakeem is also greater than Kobe, so is Kareem, Duncan. If he continues to put up solid statistical numbers (no longer will they be the best in the league, that future is for Lebron, Melo, Wade, Durant), then to me he ends up somewhere near the cusp of the top ten, right around Oscar Robinson. Who averaged a triple-double for 5 consecutive years (pace was quicker then, but getting an assist was also much harder, so it's an amazing feat regardless).

    Barring injury and at least 2-3 titles as the #1, Lebron's legacy is also going to put him in the top 5. He is already a statistical factory, and dwarfs Kobe in every way imaginable in that realm. Now that he finally has complementary pieces that are at least comparable to Kobe (though not as good as any of the one's Kobe has won rings with), it's time to see if he can finish the job. He'd better do it quick, too, because the Thunder are a solid big and one year of growth away from being the next contender.
     
  16. Mike Ness

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    TW what credit do you give for total points scored?? Allot of your argument falls into the per game average. I understand exactly what that says about a player but don't you also feel there is something to be said about staying the distance? About being a great player for longer than anyone else?

    Think about the Jim Brown vs. Barry Sanders, (any other RB), everyone points out his 5.4 yards per carry but he only played 8 seasons. Same with the Lemieux argument, his per game average was next to none but his career was cut short due to injury. He could have been better than everyone but we will never know.

    This was my point from the beginning IF Kobe continues at his level for about five more years he will most likely be about third in the all time scoring list. If he goes beyond the five years which is not impossible he could take Kareem. So my question and it is hypothetical of course, if he becomes the all time leading score you wouldn't have him in the top five players of all time?? Before you bring Karl Malone in the argument remember he has ZERO rings. If Kobe end's up the all time leading scorer with four titles I would think he had quite an impressive career. A legacy that get's him mentioned as one of the greatest to ever play the game.

    I'm like you I would never put him over Jordan and while I never saw him play I don't think I could put him over Wilt. As a matter of fact I would probably have a top five that looked like this:

    1. Michael Jordan
    2. Wilt
    3. KAJ
    4. Dr. J
    5. Shaq

    My number four pick has nothing to do with me being a huge Sixers fan either. Please remember my whole point (which you argued beautifully, this has been quite fun) was that Kobe very well COULD be a top five player not that he is now.

    I think I got to you a little your last post had him the cusp of a top ten close right?? Maybe we should do an alt. thread with the top ten players of all time.
     
  17. 555deal

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    I am a HUGE Lakers fan, and think Kobe is undeniably great, BUT anyone who says Kobe is as good as Jordan or that its even an argument doesn't watch basketball. They just don't and I hear it all the time from fellow Laker fans. Its very annoying. Also I do think Kobe is a HUGE asshole. He routinely fucks his team over and seems to alienate his teammates. I think the Lakers have the best team in the NBA this year, BUT they don't come close to playing the best basketball. If they did they'd be going for 80 wins. This all goes back to Kobe, it really does.

    I don't really know if he's the #10, #15, or #5 All time player, because I honestly don't care. He's a great player and thats all that matters.



    Fun question me and some friends have been debating...say there's a parrallel universe (ala LOST) and Kobe and LeBron come into the league at the same time, both at 18, both drafted by #6-8 seed, with similar talent. Who wins more rings? Very subjective, but just knowing what we do, who would you pick?
     
  18. El Tee

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    How is this is a fun question? It's so poorly set up that I almost want to cry. Could you be any less specific?

    Look...Shaquille O'Neal was going to win those three championships with the Lakers regardless of which athletic guard he had on his team. Replace Kobe with Derek Anderson, Steve Smith, Eddie Jones, or even (gasp!) Tracy McGrady and the Lakers would probably still have those banners. So by that standard, someone could argue that Kobe Bryant has won just ONE more ring on his own merits than Lebron has.

    But, "given what we know now" (as you put it) it's also obvious that Kobe struggled to carry a team of humps to playoff success while Lebron James actually made the Finals without a lot of help in 2007. It wasn't until Pau Gasol came over from Memphis that Kobe quit threatening to join the Clippers, after all.
     
  19. 555deal

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    Its not supposed to be specific and I have no ulterior motive. Its just like when you and your buddies debate which girl is hotter, Its just an opinion, and there is no right or wrong answer. We tend to make up these scenarios just for fun, so its not meant to be specific. Just curious who would take which player under similar circumstances.
     
  20. El Tee

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    If there's no correct answer, how can it even be a question?

    Nevermind, that's probably way too much logic to throw into this discussion and I don't want to make your head explode Scanners-style. If you and your buddies want to debate whether you'd rather bang Kobe or Lebron that's your prerogative.

    But for what it's worth, keep in mind that Kobe Bryant has had a pretty charmed NBA existence. He was drafted by a successful franchise with Hall of Fame talent and an owner that tolerated his petulance and ego when many other teams might not have. You know, I didn't mention Tracy McGrady by accident; he's a perfect example of a similarly talented prep player who ended up in the more likely circumstance of playing on bad teams for a lesser franchise. It's entirely possible that Kobe could have turned out to be another shot-chucking stat machine that bounced around the league like T-Mac or Stevie Franchise, never amouting to much. Shit, he could have even ended up being another Korleone Young.

    Lebron James, on the other hand, would be doing exactly what he's doing now no matter which team won the 2003 lottery. That he ended up in Cleveland certainly makes for better copy for the Akron native but he'd probably have helped Miami, Detroit, Denver, or Toronto get that asses swept by the Spurs in the Finals too.


    Yes, that was gratuitous. Did you expect any less?