2009 NASCAR Thread

The RMMB had a small but feisty crew of posters who loved to debate the finer points of rednecks going 'round in circles. Hopefully there are still enough folks left to keep it alive.

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I'll kick it off. I'm still a part of the Mark Martin nostalgia cup crew, but I am beginning to feel that fate is playing a cruel trick on us. Jimmie Johnson may well be on the way to his fourth cup, and Martin may well be on the way to his fifth fucking second place. I know he would shrug it off, laugh at his fate, and appreciate the opportunity he's been given to win, but that would have to be a pretty damn soul crushing result.

After last weekend, I was about ready to give up, watch Talladega, and call it a season. But a previous poster on the RMMB salvaged Martinsville (this weekend) for me. Although Johnson will likely win, the clusterfuck that double file restarts lead to should at least make the race entertaining.

 

I pretty much lost interest in NASCAR in about 1987. I just cannot tolerate the lack of consistency by the governing body in how they run the races or set rules.

I am enjoying the clusterfuck that is this "chase to the cup" It was set up to try and keep any one driver from running away with a championship too early. Instead you have one driver and team already figuring out how to make sure you win the championship every year. Make sure you have enough points to get into the chase while using all the early races as test sessions. Apply your lessons to the last ten races and you have a championship.

I am going to be interested in what changes NASCAR employs next year to try and get some interest in the series.

 

I have the same feelings, although I just started watching NASCAR around 2004/2005. I just can't stand how gimmicky it is. "The Chase for the Cup", "The Race to the Chase", "Lucky Dog", "Digger the Groundhog" on Fox (Fucking lame)...etc, etc. Then not only do they have to have the Chase, a couple years ago they have to go and fuck with the points system so all you have to do to get seeded first in the Chase is win the most races up to that point.

The lack of consistency with the rules also drives me insane. They'll penalize one team for something to do with their car, then they "warn" another team two weeks later for the same shit or something just as serious. There is too much to list. Phantom "debris" cautions, not throwing the yellow flag when someone wrecks on the last lap (Harvick's Daytona win in 2007).....and on and on.

I haven't sat down and watched a race this year. Only bits and pieces here and there then highlights. Going to races is a blast but watching it on TV has become a pain in the ass.

 

If you've missed races because of NASCAR's shenanigans, some drivers are fed up:

I didn't even know it was possible for Kasey Kahne to even GET mad, but he was livid and called NASCAR out on air for a late race phantom debris caution a couple weeks back. (The subsequent clusterfuck led to all 4 cars on his team being taken out at once on the new double file restart.)

Then this past weekend NASCAR threw another BS late race caution while Denny Hamlin was leading and JJ was chasing him. He called his pit crew, "I guess they wanted to give him another shot." A short time later (as Denny was pulling away), John Andretti spins on the last lap and stalls his car on the front stretch, but NASCAR refused to throw the yellow. Cars had to dodge past him coming to the checkered. Wasn't that the exact situation the insta-yellows and lucky dog crap was invented to prevent?

I agree with you guys -- the powers that be need to be dumped.

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That said, this weekend is Talladega. And no matter how hard NASCAR tries, that's just too much chaos to handle. Pretty much this is the last chance for the 48 to realistically stumble. I'll be watching.

 

Hi my name is Todd & I dislike NASCAR (the governing body) too.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I don't see the 48 crew being that much better than EVERYONE else.

Also, how can it be fair that when Fords win too many races in a year they have to lose a quarter inch off their rear spoiler (Thanks NASCAR). Or if the Dodge engines make too mush horsepower, NASCAR changes their engine specs (yes, toyota, it's happened many times in the past).

I just don't think I can get behind an organization that has such a fluid set of rules.

All that being said, I still love going to the track, drinking beer & being all the redneck I can be.

I will be at Texas next weekend, tailgating in the VIP Parking lot. Let me know if any of you are coming to the race.

 

Texas is a great facility, and I recommend it to anyone.

Honestly, the fluid rules are what used to make NASCAR great. "Cheating" has always been a part of the sport. My favorite driver, Bill Elliott, is famous for driving super Thunderbirds in the 1980s. That was one part innate superior design, and two part fishy motor shenanigans.

NASCAR has always had a minimum of three significantly different popular designs, and usually had a couple more. This non-standard set up allowed for a large grey zone that let creativity reign. Even as things came closer to standardization through the nineties, if different chasis were allowed, then even small teams had a chance of stumbling upon some new advantage. Now that everything is standardized with the COT, what do we see? Automatic domination by the most funded team that can push the rules within 0.001 of an inch, beyond NASCAR's own ability to test.

The standard body is a breakthrough for testing, and it means Talladega and restrictor plate racing will be awesome. But it has killed smaller teams in NASCAR.

It's the new IRL.

 

This will be my 8th Texas race, I camped/partied (Friday - Sunday) for the first 3. Now, I'm just content to go to the Sunday race & drive home.

I agree with the standardization, but your analogy is a little off. This is the New IROC series.

 

I think it is interesting to note on Ryan Newman's wreck how the wing on the trunk acts as an airfoil and lifted the back of the car once the car was going backwards. NASCAR wanted those stupid looking wings to keep the rear ends planted to the track. Now there is evidence that they will lift the cars if they are going fast enough and get turned around.

 

TMS pre-race should be interesting

Apparently something is planned with a NASA pilot, and it involves an aircraft. My guess is either some mid-field landing like with a harrier, or some kind of parachute stunt.

Leaving Saturday morning from San Antonio. This will be my second live race. Can't wait.

 

I've been to TMS a few times, for the Truck/Indy weekends. Never for a Cup weekend. Considering how the preshows for those (fair or not) lower prestige events were entertaining on their own, I'd bet there's something big for this weekend. They've had fireworks, big car destroying T-Rex robots, and parachute drops every time I've been there. Seriously, it's a top notch venue if I've ever been to one. I honestly have no excuse for not driving up there this weekend other than a slightly tight wallet and being too lazy to make the drive.

I know JJ has the championship locked up, so I'll probably tune in for the last 50 laps to see if Bill Elliott can pull off a top 10 miracle in the (Awesome looking, but sadly underfunded) Wood Bros 21.

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RANT:

As for the wing, Talladega, etc:

I can't see any other explanation for what's happened at Talladega the past couple races (beyond the normal BS, anyways.) NASCAR deluded themselves with the Carl Edwards wreck. Everyone went out of their way to point out his car was coming back down when it hit Newman (man, unlucky twice in a row) the first time that they failed the acknowledge that Edwards should never have been in the air in the first place. Newman's wreck this time with the roof flaps deploying really has made it obvious that the problem is with the wing design.

I have faith NASCAR will fix the wing sooner or later. What I lack confidence in is their ability to resist the urge to make 50 other stupid changes in the mean time to rules at Talladega that ALWAYS lead to different problems.

They had problems with cars going down into the grass, or trying to transition from the apron to the banking right around the time Earnhardt died. So they banned anything below the line, rather than merely penalizing the one or two idiot drivers who tried to force their way back up onto the track when there was no room. But they left a gray zone.

That gray zone fucks over Regan Smith on the last lap of a race (half the announcers thought what he did was legal, drivers thought anything went on the last lap.) He was forced down, and gave, like any driver would. The Tri-oval was never a problem, but NASCAR decided to be dicks and steal his win from him. He could have held his line with a car coming down on him, but he did the intelligent thing.

Of course, low and behold, the next thing happens soon after. Keselowski holds his line, knowing what would happen if he gave Edwards room. Bam, Edwards into the fence. Does NASCAR acknowledge that it's obvious their rule is stupid and needs tweaking? No, they give us this retardation.

They don't tweak the line rule (problem NO 1) and they don't address the wing (problem NO 2.)

Instead they A) Make the restrictor plates smaller, closing up the field and destroying the good gap they had going last time. And on top of that, they suddenly decide to get pissed off about what was once a FEATURE of the COT -- the ability to bump draft in the corners at these tracks because they *intentionally* lined up the front and rear bumpers.

I could go on and on. (Like the fact that the bad wrecks happened in the straights anyways. Or that if 'The big one' is so inevitable, why not let em race the whole race balls out than force them to play nice until the end and have it be GUARANTEED to happen then.)

But in the end, the problem is that NASCAR gropes around, makes 5 major changes when maybe 1 is called for, and those unpredictable variables always lead to a shit show on plate tracks.

 

I think it would be very interesting to see what an unrestricted race at Talladega or Daytona would look like. I've seen pre-restrictor plate races on espn classic and there wasn't a huge pack of 40 cars like we see now. Handling seemed to matter a lot more, and the draft seemed to matter a lot less. It was really exciting to watch, but I think the older races are more exciting in general. It'll never happen for safety reasons, but I sure would love to see it. I hate that someone can just cruise around in 38th place all day, charge ahead in the last 10 laps, and get a top 5 finish (didn't Gordon win a race a couple years ago with this strategy?).

Am I the only one who has almost completely checked out of this sport this year? I watched almost every week, but when football started, and JJ jumped to the top of the standings... again, I lost interest. In previous years, I would usually watch NASCAR over football unless there was a really good game on. But in the last year or two my NASCAR interest has dropped to almost nothing once the NFL season started. Johnson winning all these championships cannot be good for the sport, in my opinion. It's hard enough for them to compete with football, but it's even harder when it feels like you're watching a rerun of last year for the 3rd time.

 

In case anyone missed, some guy won 1 million dollars from Dickies because Kurt Busch won.

Our whole section was chanting "Nah nah, nah nah nah nah, hey hey hey, goodbye" when JJ hit the wall. I may or may not have started it, but damn, it felt so good.

Also, they announced Mark Martin is on for another two full years.

I've been to TMS the last two years now, and I've come to the conclusion that it sucks balls. I'm thinking of not making the trek next year, especially if JJ is getting the Lebron treatment again. It's just not worth it. I want to see actual racing, not this pansy-ass shit they pass as "safety measures." Guess what, fuckers, we PAY to see people risk it, lose it, and win it.

I vote:

- Only pit stops on green flags. No more of this "hey, let's all rub one out next time we get 'debris on the racetrack.'" Race, take chances, and only pit on green.

- Fuck restrictor plates. It's called racing, and some people are better, faster, handle better than others. Us fans don't give a flying fuck about everyone being on a level playing field; if your teams knows how to make you run faster, run faster. If you can't keep up, you eat shit in the back of the pack just like everyone else at every other one of the tracks. And don't talk about this "safety" bs. They're professionals. They get paid mass amounts of money to put on entertainment. If they don't feel comfortable going that fast, there are about 100 thousand things they can do to slow their shit down. But, they also have to understand that someone else might have less to lose. And they'll go faster. And we'll tune in to watch.

 

I hate to say it, but the dirty little secret of Texas Motor Speedway is that the Indycar races there are consistently better than NASCAR.

If you haven't caught one there, Samr, it may be more your style. They consistently run 210-215 mph there in openwheel cars at a track one full mile shorter than Talladega or Daytona. It really pokes holes in a lot of the "restrictor plates are necessary!!11" rhetoric in NASCAR. Seeing cars go that fast on a track of that size, while still being able to go toe to toe (well, at least the top couple teams) can be fun.

That said, I think plate races can be really interesting when they're done right. My rant aside, there have been some races where NASCAR stumbled upon a situation where the cars could give or take, draft, bump draft, break into packs or form back up if they work on it. Whenever I feel the need to shut down the shit talking of my anti-NASCAR friends, I point to the intricacies and variables of a good plate race. Some have called it "chess at 190 MPH" but the reality is it's more like game theory at 190 mph. Do you break out of line? Do you push a guy to the front? Do you back stab the guy you just pushed/pulled for your own shot at glory, or do you settle for an okay finish? That's real prisoner's dilemma shit right there, played out in the blink of an eye.

I'd love to see unrestricted superspeedway races, but I'd settle for NASCAR just fixing 1 or 2 problems, accepting the flaws of plate racing instead of trying to impose its will, and letting em go at it.

 

You guys do know they don't use plates at TMS right? They're only used at Daytona and Talladega.

Texas is probably the fastest track on the circuit, as the cars routinely hit 200 and above on the front stretch.

And if I remember right, Rusty said he was scared out of his mind during that Dega test run:

What would happen at Talladega without restrictor plates on the cars?

I did a test there for Nextel and took the re­strictor plate off the car. I went around the race track and got up to 233 mph through the straightaways and 228 through the corners. I ran three laps before the tires came off. I said, ‘This car is undriveable.’ You take the plates off and let them run, you’ll crash your brains out.

http://blog.al.com/blogoftomorrow/2009/ ... ter_f.html

 

You're right of course. My point is that Indycar drivers do at Texas what NASCAR is afraid to let its drivers do at Daytona/Talladega -- high banked 210+ oval racing. That said, could you imagine an Indy race at Talladega?

(Incidently, do you remember the one plate race at New Hampshire? Worst race ever. But you can't blame em for doing it at the time.)

As for Rusty, I always thought he was funny as a driver, but hearing him cite tires as a reason to not do it is the most laughable thing ever. If you watched Dave Despain's assignment: Talladega, you know why. When drivers first got to Talladega, they had the same tire problem. Only back then they were complaining that the tires couldn't handle a jump up to 190-200 mph from 160-170. So of course a 20-30 mph jump from tires designed for 190-200 to 220-230 would probably have similar wear issues. Goodyear would definitely have to design a new tire for unrestricted races. It's the same problem dcc cited with running the wrong aero package in the test.