Get back in the office and work dickhead!

Man, I guess I was just raised in the old school way. For years now Ive been trying to "be an adult" and im only 20. The benifits of this is that I didnt fuck around "finding myself" or "wondering what to do with my life," and its because of this Ive been driving a $25 000 truck since highschool, Im in the career I want to be in and already looking at houses, and should own one by the time my 21st birthday comes up. Some people may say that they are trying to have fun in their youth and blah blah blah but to me being financially independent and being a homeowner is more important then living with my parents and wasting time and money in my 20's. Believe it or not in North America a man is measured by his net worth and what he does for a living, I know alot of girls that think a guy who knows what the fuck hes doing, isnt a lazy bum and has a good job is alot sexier then someone without all that. IMHO life is too short to fuck around, by the time your 30 your youth is gone, and by the time your 40 your middle aged and by the time your 55 or 60 you're and old man.

 

Wikipedia tells us:

And a few others:

In other words; other people behave in certain ways because that's their inherent (and flawed) personality, but I engage in certain behaviours because that's the situation I find myself in. In this case, she assumes that guys are delaying marriage because they're more immature these days; women, however, are delaying marriage because guys are too immature to marry them. In reality, everyone is delaying marriage because it's economically feasible, and everyone would rather spend their money on ski trips than diapers.

Yeah, that's exactly it. All the guys in the world are cads and you're alone wandering through an empty wilderness. If the situation had been the other way round and this woman were floating through an ocean of high-quality, high-earning, living-alone men who were willing to commit, does anyone think that she wouldn't be a serial dater and make up something about how there are so many great guys out there and she can't decide which one to marry?

Here's another wrinkle: she loves comparing the couple from Knocked Up. The woman is put together and mature, and the guy is shiftless and lazy and unwilling to grow up. Aside from the ridiculous caricature that Seth Rogen was, does anyone else remember how sexually frigid Katherine Heigl's character was in that movie? But she also uses as a heroine the friend that wrote the book about hooking up with so many guys. And here's something else - precisely the things that have allowed women to get more university degrees than men and have careers and be independent are precisely the things that she implicitly decries. Namely, birth control, abortion, and the sexual revolution. If women aren't barefoot, pregnant and kitchenbound, then men aren't marrying them or raising their kids or working a job to stock that kitchen. If she wants to be a second class citizen and be married off young, there are plenty of countries and societies that would be happy to oblige her.

... where does she suppose the sperm banks get their stocks from?

 

I'm sorry...WHATYOUSAY?!?!

Honestly, the most remarkable thing about that article is how thoroughly unremarkable it is. It literally said zero things I haven't heard before. She has some gender views that are more paleolithic than most similar authors, but her arguments are the same as those of every other socially conservative pearl-clutcher who has been down this road before.

I feel like we've been reading the same article for 3 or 4 years. The content stays the same; the only change is which periodical publishes it.

This. 50 years ago, premarital sex was outside of mainstream American culture. Sure, some people had sex. To deny that would be stupid. But American culture at the time was a place where pop songs talked about how "I want to hold your hand" and Mary Tyler Moore slept in a separate bed from her TV husband.

Supposedly, Willie Sutton said he robbed banks because "that's where the money is." Well, in the 1950s, a lot of people of both genders got married because that was where the sex was.

Also, the fact that she wrote that entire article without talking about the rising cost of her "American Dream" is kind of ludicrous. The following numbers are ballpark figures, but you'll get the idea:

In 1960, you could buy a house and car for roughly $90K in 2003 dollars and median household income was in the ballpark of $35K. So a house and car could be paid for with roughly 3 years of income, on average.

Fast forward to 2010. The median income is about $42K and a home and car might run you $200K, averaging across vehicles and regions. We're now talking about five years of income.

Over that time, the cost of her adulthood doubled, while median income has only increased about 20%. Her adulthood is fucking expensive.

 

I hope I'm misreading this because your post comes off as if there's no reason to care about anything other than how much money and possessions you have. Did you buy that 25k truck on your own in high school? Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical. I've met a bunch of rich kids who said the same thing while their parents gave them absurd allowances. And how did you get your job? Just curious... It's great that you're doing well, but most people haven't even finished college at your age. Slowing down a bit might not be the worst thing. A lot of people can get houses early in their career, some of use just don't feel like enslaving ourselves in a huge mortgage debt. I'm not saying all that stuff isn't important, but there's a lot more to do in your youth. And I don't mean to be confrontational, I just know some people who own a lot of shit and do absolutely nothing outside of their work.

That being said, the 'finding yourself' phase can go on a bit too long and be a lame cop out/excuse to be lazy while the person bemoans that they don't know what to do with their lives.

Edit: What Netdatta said. Women have been ranting about this bullshit since the dawn of time. I'm not even going to finish the article.

 

Until someone can come up with a concrete definition of "mature" that fits into this particular context, then this discussion, while interesting, is all for nothing.

It's a term that gets plenty of use, but often has a different meaning for every single person that uses it.

Just food for thought.

 

I think a good definition of mature is someone who knows what he wants out of life and has spent a great deal of intelligent thought as to how he's going to achieve it and why.

I'm not mature. I'm only 19, and to be honest I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to do with my life. For now I'm just waiting. I wince when I look at guys my age getting married and having kids, because while that might be perfectly rewarding for them, they just butchered their options. If it works out for them, great. But if it doesn't, they don't really have much of a choice anymore; they have the obligations that come from having other people depend on you. They're closing doors that they don't even know exist.

 

If we're going with that, Don Draper is not mature. He's living a life fulfilled with other people's fantasies, masking his discomfort with booze and women. If that's our definition, Don Draper, the archetype of 1950s/60s males, was a petulant man-child.

 

I would agree with that. You can look as mature as you want, but if you don't actually have a direction that you're going in life, one that you've thought out and are executing with your own will and motivation, can you actually consider yourself to be mature?

 

By this bimbo's arguments, every womens liberationist of the 1960's was just a child reluctant to grow up. How dare they want a choice in the direction of their lives rather than being compelled into pumping out brats in part of the judeo-christian patriarchal ideal.

As a committed feminist, I refuse to be part of that archaic and antiquated social model, with it's embodied dynamic of men as the provider while women are forced into motherhood at the cost of their bodies, their freedoms and their careers. Fuck her and fuck the middle aged white men she rode in on.

 

PREACH, SISTA! TESTIFY!

 

Shut up, I'm trying to head shot this n00b.

 

I don't have much to say beyond what has already been said but I will say this:

Video games for men = shopping for women.

 

Its not like the only thing I care about is what I own, I just take pride in what Ive worked hard for. And yes I bought my truck for myself on my own because Ive worked since I was 13 on a neighbours organic dairy farm. I didnt have an extravagant allowance, all I got was 5 bucks a day from my parents to eat lunch in the school cafeteria, so about 25 bucks a week. And yes, I got the job through my dad, just because he didnt want to see me laze around the house all summer long, which I actually thank him for. When I stared working my dad explained to me how to save, and what goals are. He said when I was 16 I could have a nice truck, and a maybe 5 or 6 years after that I could buy my own house. So ever since I was 13 that was my goal, to own a house.

Even now because of that Im a saver. If I had a day off or an unexpected bill comes up and after I pay my bills, save my $500 a week minumum and Im only left with 20 dollars spending money for the week, well guess what; Im going to have a shitty boring week and Im going to have to make that 20 dollar bill stretch for 7 days. Up until I was 16 or 17 I saved roughly 85 percent of everything I made, and I worked alot. Everyday before school one of my parents would drive me to my neighbours to milk in the morning, then I would eat breakfast there, jump on the bus and go to school. After school I would go back to my neighbours to help with the afternoon milking. Then I went home to do my homework, played outside for a bit and was in bed by 8:00, maybe 9:00pm at the latest. In the summers I worked 60 hours a week farming until I was 16 when I got a job cutting down trees, and there we used to work 14 hour days, six days a week. For 3 summers (gr.10-11, gr.11-12, gr.12-college) I made on average of about $10k after taxes in about two months. College didnt work out for me, I realized I didnt want to sit in an office all day, so I picked up a trade. Now Im an electrical apprentce and again I ask for as much overtime as I possibly can, saving everything I possibly can.

I dont want a "huge mortgage debt." I want to keep my mortgage payments under 25 percent of what I make a month so Im not house broke. To do that I need a huge down payment, so Its a good thing I have one. Just because Im pre-approved for a $325k dosent mean Im going to buy a house thats costs $324 990.

You made a good point near the end, I dont want work to consume my life. But Id rather bust my back now though when Im young and my body can take it, so when Im older I can relax and not have to work so hard.

One thing I do love is hunting. I dont mind taking time off for that or spending money on it. Its my hobby, everyone has to have one.

I see the mentality people here speak of through a few family friends. A couple did what they wanted in their 20's, realized they wanted a house so they started saving. In their early 30's they could afford one. For awhile they paid off their mortgage until they realized they should start saving for retirement in their early 40's. This gives them 25 years to save money to retire, which isnt a whole hell of alot. Ive got the beat on saving for a house by 12 years and saving for retirement by 20 years. In that combined amount of time, I will be alot father ahead then them because Ill have an extra 32 years worth of saving for shit under my belt when its time to retire,

I want to provide a good life for my family as well as myself. So the only way to get ahead in this economy is to work your bag off or win the lottery. Im not very lucky so I gota work hard.

 

No one thinks it's lame for someone to big into Westerns, that's what men do! Star Wars is just that iconic film for a certain generation. I'm sure plenty of women from older generations thought John Wayne was silly.

And, a bit off topic, but if you're going to complain about men not being men, "I love you." "...I know" is simultaneously one of the most manly and one of the most romantic exchanges in movie history.

 

In answer to her ramblings which I admit I ended up skimming for fear of sacrificing brain cells: "Who gives a fuck?"

If you give a fuck, stand over there. If you don't, stand over here. She's postulating on a subjective notion using subjective criteria. What constitutes mature is not empirically set in stone. Maybe it is to her, or to you, but not across the board. The point is, no one person has any authority here.

That aside, and running with the themes we have here, I think what we're currently seeing is a payoff of years of social change. I typed "social reform" then changed my mind, because I didn't want to connote that things are better.... that's also a subjective decision.

Since the 60s, particularly, we've seen revolution in not only what happens, but also in our attitude to what is happening. Today's middle aged people were the children of the 60s and 70s; you know, when concepts like feminism, flower power, social disobedience on a large scale, public protest, racial equality and the like either took off or germinated. When you mix that in with the advent of the information age, we now have a situation where the degree of freedom available to the individual is unprecedented. As you look back at each preceding era, there's been change on a social scale. As a broad concept, compare the 1920s to 50s, the turn of the 20th century, the Victorian age, the Middle Ages and so on all the way back. Each has seen, at least in my opinion, a shift in the degree of personal freedom available.

What do people do when they're free? Whatever the hell they want. Ergo, you get grown men being accused of being immature.

Any person in a society is subject to its rules, and the leaders of that society are just as bound (at least in public). I would argue that the men that the author is referring to when she determines maturity were men that were indoctrinated into the social expectations of the time. The same goes for women. You couldn't even argue that it was a conscious choice for most, because it was all they ever knew. You got married around age X "because it was the done thing" and then had kids "because it was the done thing". If you didn't run with the pack, you were in danger of being ostracised. This was, at least, partially policed within the community because of the sense of isolation.

Communites weren't as connected as they are now, travel was expensive or unobtainable, news from abroad was sketchy and delayed. Barring major events like the gold rush, religious intolerance and war, people stayed where they were. The easier option in those situations is to conform.

Today, everything is connected. Travel is cheap. Multiculturalism is prevalent, bringing with it new ideas. Information and news is a computer screen away. Add to that the change in attitudes and perceptions of society that have been brewing and you get situations where people can do whatever the hell they want because the social fetters are either removed or have lost most of their power.


Which is all a very long winded way of saying "times change, update your outlook".