In case you haven't heard lately, the latest pre-October Surprise in the United States is the controversy over whether to permit some people to build something that may or may not qualify as a mosque a few blocks away from the former site of the World Trade Center in New York City. What's fascinating about this debate to me is that, whatever side you're on, you're a patriot and the other side is undermining American values. Also, there are apparently people in the world who do not live in the United States, and they surely must have opinions as well. I know what my feelings are. But I'm curious: what do the erudite, well-reasoned denizens of The Idiot Board say? FOCUS: Mosque or no mosque? RULES: We have a standing no-politics rule here at TiB. This is sort of a "trial balloon" for some more serious threads. Relevant and reasoned political discourse are allowed on THIS THREAD; I don't want to see it bleeding over into other parts of the board. Keep it civil and reasonable. If we see shit getting personal or out of hand, it will be BAD for the people who do it, and this thread will get locked up lickety split.
This mosque is a stupid fucking idea. According to the NYC zoning laws should a mosque be allowed? Yes. According to common sense and decency? No. Absolutely not. I have a feeling that a mosque at ground zero is going to bring around some nasty, half buried 9/11 feelings from a lot of Americans and bring the crazies out of the woodwork. You think abortion clinic bombings are bad? Wait till its 300 Muslims blown to bits all over ground zero. We're going to have a jihad fest on our hands when things go bad there. Freedom to practice religion? Of course. Just not at a site where part of your religion killed a few thousand Americans. You're asking for it and I'm not going to feel bad if they go through with this and things go to shit.
Frylock... Are you sure you know what you're doing...? I absolutely think they should be able to build the mosque. It seems like the no mosque side just implicitly lumps the 9/11 attacks in with the religion as a whole... which is ridiculous. If those "God Hates Fags" Christian nuts ever decided to blow something up, would we say no churches should be built in the area?
How about looking at this issue...from the perspective of extremist Arab Muslims? To them, they successfully killed 3,000+ of the Great Satan's people and inspired fear and terror into the heart of the evil nation. It's a glorious victory for Allah! Celebration in the streets! And now, the cherry on top! The mighty faith of Islam gets to build a Holy Mosque right across from where all the infidels died. "Our people conquered a part of New York City, and now we're colonizing it! Hell, even the US President supports us! America is painfully weak, and scared to death of the power of Allah and his one true prophet Muhammed! Take heart allies; now is the time to crush them once and for all!" For citizens of the US, it's about "freedom of religion". Okay. To extremist Arab Muslims, it's what Neville Chamberlain signing a peace treaty with Hitler looked like to the Nazis. An admission of weakness and helplessness.
I'd argue that by building a mosque on ground zero the Americans would show the terrorists (to be referred to as Goat-Fuckers, not to be confused with the Welsh who are partial toward the woollier sheep) that the USA doesn't shit on other religions and is a country of freedom, peace and the pursuit of happiness. I mean, what better way than to "get" back at those goat-fuckers than to show them why and how they're wrong, with their own religion. I'm just offering the argument, even though it's really interesting I don't really have an opinion on the matter. That being said, Giuliani is right, there has to be a better way - this is only going to cause more anger and tension. /srs bsns I gotta say - I like how Islam deals with the woman-wanting-equality-problem by nipping it at the bud. When you're struggling to walk, breath and see two feet infront of you at the age of 13, you'll be less likely to complain about another man getting 30% higher wages than you. That is, if we allow you to work at all.
That's the way that you, a Westerner educated in the ideals of freedom and democracy, interprets it. It is not the way that an extremist Arab Muslim interprets it. For them, it's an admission of defeat and helplessness by the enemy nation. Radical Muslims have a simple, straightforward mindset, and concepts such as "freedom of religion" don't exist in their world view. What does exist is displaying the power and might of one's nation/tribe/group, or conversely, its weakness. You forgot the best parts; in certain Muslim nations, there is a tradition of slicing off the woman's clitoris as a child so she can't derive any pleasure from intercourse, and "honor" killing her if she is raped by a man! "Nipping it at the bud" indeed!
I think you're simplifying and belittling the enemy a bit too much here. They may be radical Islamists (ahem, goat-fuckers) but to think that they don't understand the basic concepts of a free country is foolish. They don't spend 18 hours a day just boiling with rage in a windowless room, they are people too. People in technological capable societies with Google, Yahoo, Facebook and all the rest of the fun western stuff. People who are social and discuss, amongst other matters, philosophy and human governance. I'm sure the 'terrists', and especially the ones in charge, know better than 'rah, rah, brute force we won NYC and soon THE WORLD!!1'. 9/11 was the largest and only coordinated foreign attack on US soil since Pearl Harbour, that takes years of planning and preparation. Don't underestimate their intelligence based on their piety. /supr srs bsnss
Do me a huge favour and explain to me how you could possibly know how an extremist Arab Muslim interprets anything?
I don't know how I'd feel about a mosque AT ground zero, but I know I don't care about a muslim community centre two blocks away.
I'm against them building it. But then again I'm against the building of all religious structures. It's simply a waste of vital resources and building materials. No wonder houses cost so much.
It's funny you should say this, because the reality is pretty much the exact opposite. Al Qaeda would love nothing more than for us to prohibit this mosque from being built. Anti-Islamicism in the U.S. is the best possible thing for Al Qaeda—it's polarizing and supports their aims of creating a world of "us vs. them." Kind of hard to rally support for their operations if the U.S. is proving itself to be tolerant of their religion... much easier when stories like this make us out to be complete wackos. As for the symbolism of it... symbolism is whatever we make it out to be. Personally, I think allowing the mosque to be built would be a reflection of what makes this country great, and would be one more example of why the U.S. is one of the greatest countries in the world. In either case, this is one of the dumber controversies I've seen in a while. It's a media-driven controversy, and there's no legal basis for its opposition so the whole point is moot anyway. My prediction is that this thing will move forward, there will be protests/harassment during the first couple weeks of its opening, and then the media will lose interest and so will the rest of the country. In six months no one will remember or care, and the only value it will be to Al Qaeda either way is the current propaganda storm that we're watching from both sides on television. P.S. Guys, I hear someone is trying to open a sushi bar right at the site of Pearl Harbor!!!!
The last fucking thing I was doing was "belittling" radical Muslims. In fact, that's what precisely what you're doing by repeatedly by calling them "goat-fuckers". No, they are damn skilled, efficient, and cunning, which is a lot more than one can say for the police/military force of much of the Western world now. But no, they didn't receive a liberal Western education trumpeting respect for other religions and cultures for 18 years of their lives. Perhaps that makes them "simple" (I used that word myself), but it's reality. Where did I say anything about "understand"? It simply doesn't enter into their mindset or interpretation of what goes on, that's all. Dude, are you even responding to my post anymore? Where was this remotely implied anywhere in this topic? Or is that what you think? So now you're confusing "radical Arab Muslims" who are financially supported by the work of their women and children with plain old "Muslims" with normal jobs and mostly secular lives? Lovely. And no, the guys with AK-47s who shout "death to the US!" in the Afghanistan desert don't work for "Google, Yahoo, Facebook and all the rest of the fun western stuff". Those are the people I was referring to. I have several Arab Muslim friends. They tell me things. Through one of them, I have met a borderline radical Arab Muslim. I talk to him. I also read books. Honestly, it's the same thing anyone on a college campus can do if they're so inclined. People with more knowledge and experience on this matter (like BryanH) can feel free to correct me. I just don't understand why this is so bizarre and unusual for you. I love how you take a random tweet (with no corroborating evidence) which merely says certain members of Al Qaeda are rejoicing over the fact that there is a serious debate in the US over the matter and change that into the bolded part. If you feel differently than me, fine, but at least TRY to be honest with how you present "evidence". Again, this is a wonderful example of how a Westerner interprets this situation. Fine. I've already stated how a radical Muslim looks at it. Now, you can argue "it doesn't matter what they think!" and have a point. However, you and Supertramp refuse to believe that someone growing up in the Middle East will have any different of an interpretation of it than either of you do. Here's my question; is it really so hard to accept that there are people with vastly different worldviews out there than your own?
I think Obama put it perfectly (I'm NOT expressing my opinions on the man and his presidency in general, JUST this ONE particular issue): The muslims have every constitutional right to put their building at this location, but you have to question the wisdom of letting it happen. Personally, I think it's a little passive agressive.
No. It's disrespectful. But still, it really doesn't matter what I think. I'm part of the peanut gallery. Go ask 9/11 families what they want the site of their loved ones' deaths to be today. I think most of them would want some type of memorial. Not a mosque, not a center, not a fucking 7/11 or Gap, but someplace they can go to remember someone. And, if they build a mosque does that mean they'll build a church, synagogue, temple, and facilities for tiny religions I can't even think of at the moment? If we're being politically correct and accepting all faiths, then why are we debating about allowing just ONE religion to worship there? Why are political figures who aren't directly involved with this decision giving their thoughts either way? This isn't about "accepting all faiths and religions". That's what our government wants us to believe. This is about political agendas and politicians creating a certain image. Nothing's changed. It's a controversy to distract us from the real issues and crimes our government is getting away with. Also, I don't understand why New Yorkers are accepting this. They hate everyone.
Yes. I'm pretty sure it's not a mosque. It's a community center two blocks away that won't have anything "mosque-like?" in it. Much like a catholic community center has a swimming pool and a basketball court and summer camp. Only it's run my Muslims.
even if it does have a mini-mosque inside I still don't care. Is it insensitive to have a church near the Oklahoma city bombing site?
Here's a point for all of you: Are there a lot of Muslims living close to the old WTC site? If not, there's no reason to build a Muslim Community Centre or Mosque in that particular area. The area I live in in Durban is now very Indian (Hindus, Tamils and Muslims) and has at least 2 mosques and one community center and a prayer room within 5 minutes drive. To my knowledge, from the example I've seen here in Durban is that Muslims generally build their homes close to their mosques and prayer rooms - I'm guessing it's similar overseas. Since the Group Areas Act was abolished, Muslims have started migrating to the suburb I live in, since on the other side of the hill was the old "Indian" area as defined by the Group Areas Act - Indians were not allowed to live or own property in Morningside while the Group Areas Act was in effect. From where I stay, you can very clearly hear them calling the faithful to prayer like 5+ times a day, since they're allowed to use megaphones to broadcast with. What would be prudent for NYC would be to ban the use of electronically-adjustable (or battery-powered) megaphones used in the direct broadcast of all religious messages, if they have not done so already - it's bad enough in the evening that windows have to be kept closed to have any chance of hearing yourself think let alone have a conversation with someone else. I do, however, think it is extremely insensitive and in bad taste for Muslims to want to build a community centre or mosque anywhere near the old WTC site. However, there isn't much you can do to stop construction (unless other residents vote against it or start legal proceedings, obviously), but they must be prepared to deal with the other religious fanatics who will probably attmept (and may succeed) at destroying the mosque or community centre. As we all know, you get enough religious psychos hell-bent on something, and terrorism happens and innocents get snuffed out.
Stop injecting facts into a political debate. Not cool dude. Really? Do you not know what they're building on the actual footprint of the Twin Towers? A fucking 9/11 memorial. If we had to get the permission of the families of people who died there as to what could be built, then nothing would ever be built, because they can never agree. Some of the family members even showed up to protest when they started working on the memorial because it's not the memorial they wanted. Do you know what structures are closer to Ground Zero than the Muslim community center? Trinity Church and the Beth Din Zedek Synagogue. Even more than they hate everyone, New Yorkers don't care about anyone. I used to live four blocks from Ground Zero, only about twice the distance of the community center, and I did a ton of drinking, masturbating and out-of-wedlock sexual intercourse. Is that disrespectful to the memories of the people who died literally down the street?
The Muslim prayer center nearby only has enough space for about 20% of the Muslims who want to attend. But, in NY it's not necessarily a question of who lives there. That area is fairly easily accessible for much of Manhattan, as well as Brooklyn and New Jersey. And remember, it will serve not just residents but also people who work in the area who might visit after work or during their lunch break, etc.
I personally don't have a problem with the idea, but I can see where it's controversial. However, I'd just like to point out how much Muslims would shit a fucking a-bomb brick if Hooters all of a sudden announced they were building a new location.......right next to Mecca.