Isn't the difference between callousness and compassion at the very crux of any disagreement about mental health? You know, I was going to make a point about how the people defending him aren't claiming understanding, only admitting ignorance in giving him the benefit of the doubt. I was going to point out that he tried different therapists, and never felt comfortable admitting to them his most personal secret, which is different from not trying at all. I was definitely going to point out that everybody here is just voicing their opinions, just like you, and in the end we'll all probably go on about our days. But then I realized you in the same sentence you attempted to elevate the dialogue and used the term "faggy miata jack-assery." And I concluded that you don't actually read your posts, so that whole first paragraph would be useless. My feelings, in meme form (because we can use some cuteness amirite?):
It's long, it's not curved, but it is ugly. Spoiler I'm not trying to dogpile on ballsack here, but man, really? Take it with a grain of salt from someone with very limited life experience, but the guy felt like he exhausted his options. It's entirely possible that talking to a shrink about his rape would have helped, but the trust issue is really key here. He went to doctors that, in his opinion, didn't seem to really be paying much attention. Given his whole "people can't be trusted, they will do whatever the fuck they want" outlook (which to me, is pretty damn accurate), you can't reasonably expect that he would have had the trust necessary to speak on what he went through. Speaking for myself, I've been fucked over by nearly every person I've ever seriously trusted, and that has given me some severe trust issues. Living that on top of being repeatedly raped at a young age? The guy should get some credit for holding on as long as he did. We all have our secrets; I have some that will go to my deathbed with me, but all of them together add up to the smallest speck of shit compared to Bill's experience. I can't imagine how he felt for 27 years, but I believe he deserves some credit for holding on as long as he did. To be fair to him, he tried, with relationships, friendships, hell he even spoke to his piece-of-shit parents. By the way, someone should thank them for the part they played in fucking him up.* Focus: I don't really know that I can specify the exact criteria of when I think it is or isn't right for someone to commit suicide. It's not something where you can paint too broadly. That said, I think there are a few general considerations - if you have a family depending on you for support, hell no. Not only are you leaving them out in the wind, that' is going to have some seriously lasting repercussions. I know someone whose father made the decision to eat a shotgun on the way to work one morning, and she's still fucked up over it at forty years old. Granted, she is emotionally unstable, but it could be argued that being the last person to see her father alive at age 17 is part of the reason behind that. This comes to what someone said above: That whether by suicide or not, a death still causes some serious pain and lasting effects. I believe a suicide of someone close is a lot worse than getting hit by a car, but that's opinion that I thankfully can't back up with experience; that said, I believe a large part of that is the self-blame and the chorus of "I'm such a terrible X for not being able to see this coming and prevent it." As has been said, some people reach a point where they don't want help. They just want out. Maybe they don't want to drag others down with them and their issues; maybe they don't care; maybe I'm just pontificating at length. Who fucking knows? Once someone has reached the point where they're ready to die, their mindset isn't something that other people can really relate to. Horrible fucking analogy, but it's somewhat comparable to a cultist or other zealot in that their way of thinking has changed beyond what other people can really grasp. They've spent too much time drowning, struggling to reach the surface of the pool and they finally lose the ability to even get off the bottom, so they let the drain such them down. Another horribly constructed analogy, but it holds. Now, medically speaking - if someone is terminal, in untreatably chronic pain, or diagnosed with a disease like Alzheimer's, then yes. Not unequivocally, because there are always cases with varying factors, but in most cases, let them die. Assisted suicide should be allowed in cases like these. Tell me what is the fucking point of making someone spend up to two decades wasting away mentally, or choking on their own dying organs for months, weeks, or even days while they rack up medical bills that their family will get saddled with?
Maybe I'm just a glass half full guy. I don't understand why they aren't on the street corner preaching the merits of therapy. You want to make therapy carry less of a stigma? I've got a simple solution...If you've been through it and come out on top, don't give a guy like this sympathy. Go fucking preach it from the roof top that he isn't alone with these feelings, and there is help out there, so he doesnt go eat the fucking barrel of a fucking gun, inflicting emotional anguish on everyone around him.
I can only view this topic through the lens of my faith and I am not going where you might think. Whether we grew up in some shithole in Cambodia or with a golden spoon up our ass in Beverly Hills, we are all trying to struggle through our life circumstance and overcome the challenges that hold us back as we see them. Some us believe that our existence does not end at the same time our heart stops beating. If true, then why would it not hold to reason that the same inner problems will continue to torture us after we are gone, only then with even more regret (mental disease aside)? Deal with your bullshit while you are here and do your best to overcome. There is no guarantee that it gets better once life ends. If we are all sitting around just talking about severe mental illness, then this is a pointless debate. There is no rhyme or reason as to whether they kill themselves, save a damsel in distress or eat their own shit.
Yeah, pretty sure I never advocated for killing yourself instead of seeking help. As to the analogy I provided, I could have found a better one, but my point is still valid. That people are prescribing for this man something that he isn't or wasn't capable of. When you're truly depressed, getting help seems like such a great idea, until it doesn't work. It's naive to think that therapy is this panacea, and that everyone reacts exactly the same to therapy, however you define it. Just because I've gone through therapy and have found meds that work for me, doesn't mean that I can't think that I am just luckier than Mr. Zeller. I had a confidant and an advocate for my safety and health. Despite this, I didn't even tell my wife that I was having suicidal thoughts and had several courses of action plotted out. It took a therapist that basically told her she was on suicide watch with me. I can't describe the state of mind adequately to impress upon you or anyone how it feels to seemingly not have anything to live for. It's outside of the scope of a healthy, functional brain. I truly believe that everyone can be helped, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know exactly how to help everyone. Not even mental health professionals do. Also, I don't think that Ballsack's opinion and Dr. Rob's are one and the same, but phrased differently. What Dr. Rob seems to be saying is that taking ones life is an intense decision -- as well as, I assume, a complex one -- nowhere in Ballsack's posts do I detect he's even thought outside of what he thinks is right.
Suicide is selfish? I'm literally giving away all of my stuff! It's like I invited all my closest family and friends over to my apartment and told them they could have anything they wanted except my nicest suit.
These are not the same. It's the same functional, operationalized outcome of "seek help", but not the same opinion. There is a nuanced difference between the two positions. One of the problems of Psychology's transition to the medical model, and the proliferation of the Cognitive Behavioral Theory in general. It attempts to manualize treatment for all 'illnesses' so that a standard protocol exists. This would be ideal if we fully understood the mind and the functions of the brain, but we don't. We're working towards it. Mental illnesses have a genetic basis to an extent, but there are so many other factors that influence the expression of pathology that the idea that if you manualize treatment, and thus, if patient X receives Y number of sessions, then he should be cured is foolish. Therapy is a collaborative effort that takes work between the client and therapist, and sometimes for whatever reason, doesn't work. Perhaps it's the fault of the therapist, the fault of the client, or even a function of the specific therapy modality. Perhaps this particular type of therapy is not effective for this client. The idea of "fuck him, he should have gotten help" oversimplifies the complexities of therapy and the therapeutic relationship. "Fit" between client and therapist is one of the best predictors for positive progress. Unfortunately, some people never 'find' a compatible therapist, or a therapist they are comfortable working with. Also the implication that his decision to not seek further help is somehow due in part to 'vanity' and not due to core beliefs about the world internalized at a young age only serves to further stigmatize depression/PTSD (which is what it sounds like this guy had)/ and mental illnesses in general.
Well said. This kind of thing is far from cut and paste. It's different because of everyone's specific experiences and situations. Every case is unique, and to apply a one size fits all policy to a suicide is not just short-sighted, it's bordering on blithering idiocy. Unless all the facts are known about this case, I think it's safe to say that even educated and licensed psychiatrists will have difficulty diffusing this in its entirety.
Maybe I am just throwing more clusterfuckery on to this, but I will say I have been there. I have been to the point where I just didn't want it to go on any more. Hell most of my days are spent in an effort to stay out of my own head because I often dont like whats going on in there. The only reason I am alive today is because I promised my cousin that I would call him if I ever got to the point again where I was wanting to end it. When I tried to throw in the towl I called my cousin after having just swallowed a bottle of Unisom, and a bottle of Vicoden. I washed that down with a copius amount of Grey Goose. So had I not called my cousin, just to say I'm sorry, I was pretty fucked. Some therapy, a whole cocktail of antidepressents, and almost three years later, I am very happy that my cousin got had the paramedics litterally beat my door down. I got to know my two great kids. (Who at the time I had strong evidence weren't mine.) I am in a very positive relationship. I have an overwhelming support system of family, and friends. All in all my life is pretty damn good. That being said, I firmly believe that any human being should have control over their life. There are still days, hell weeks, where I feel every waking moment is just shittier than the last. Times where all I want is to dig my grave, and give up on this whole pointless fuck of an existance. I am quite sure if it weren't for the amazing people I have surrounded myself with I would not have made it to 27. Yes I personally have chosen to battle all the bullshit in my head, but who am I to tell anyone else that they should be forced to do the same. Having read the article that started all this I feel that the Mr. Zeller did at least TRY to seek mental help. How long are you supposed to keep being failed by an institution designed to help you before you are allowed to give up? Given the option I would tell anybody thinking of killing themself, that there are people out there who want to help you. And there are far more human beings that care than you could ever really appreciate when deppressed. But ultimately every descision an adult makes is ultimately their choice.
Hi, my name is Politik, and I have major depressive disorder. I had this whole narrative written up but I don't feel safe posting it where retards like sack can save it. Unless you have experienced serious medical issues (like having MS or a malignant tumor), have professional experience in mental health, or have PERSONALLY suffered through a severe mental disease, I would tread carefully. You have no idea what kind of hell it is when your brain chemistry is screwed up and your body is not producing enough dopamine and serotonin for you to feel happiness. For a frame of reference: try thinking of day where you woke up on "the wrong side of the bed". Shitty mood all day and nothing seems to be going right. Now imagine living that all day, every single day for years. It literally starts to drive you insane. Depression is accompanied by cripplingly low self-esteem. Asking severely depressed people to think more logically is like telling a schizo to stop seeing shit. It just doesn't work that way. I genuinely pray that the idiots who use the "at least you didn't contract HIV while being born into an impoverished village in Sub-Saharn Africa" line keep their mouths shut in real life. Chemical imbalances do not care about your logic and the suffering is still very real. Humiliating people who are barely able to get out of bed in the morning is cruel. Final note: Ballsack, you should be ashamed of yourself for shitting on Bob. It takes a lot of courage to be emotionally honest about diseases that make you want to kill yourself. But then again, this is what you want to hear. You would never spew this bullshit to a depressed person in real life. Pathetic. Focus If there were no restrictions on assisted suicide I would've applied for it as soon as I turned 18. Assisted suicide should be legal with very substantial oversight.
One of the points I wish I had been more crystal about was that depression often tells you, perhaps erroneously, is that there are NO options. That's what makes it such a tricky animal. The very thing that can help you is often rejected because the depression can lead to tunnel vision. This clearly isn't true for everyone because many seek help, but depending on the stripe, severity and chronicity of the illness, you may see nothing as viable. Not seeing possible solutions doesn't make you "retarded," it's just a severe symptom of the illness from which you're suffering.
Is it wrong that, after reading four pages of this stuff, the first thought that occurred to me is that no one has posted this link yet?
I believe in allowing someone to take their own life, in certain circumstances. The specifics of those circumstances vary, and are shades of grey. If you're an emo kid who lost his girlfriend to the star football player, no suicide for you... just a smack upside the head and some proper parenting, If, on the other hand, you're suffering from some serious issues and want to give up, I say sure. Not my place to say otherwise. I say this as having had a wife and best friend of 9 years who has severe mental illness. She is schitzo affective and bi-polar, among other things, and lived with it since she was 9. Every day was a living hell for her, unless she was "properly" medicated. That "proper" medication was a handful of meds that would knock a horse out for a month and cause her to get insanely overweight, so much so that ever her doctors called them the "fat chick meds". A "properly medicated" day for her meant she was in bed for 18-20 hours, and a walking, drooling zombie the other 4-6. Her life had no quality, to say the least. She had good days, and bad days, and way more bad days than good. A few times a year she would break down, not able to take any more, and ask to be admitted to the hospital where she would be put into a drooling coma for a week to take a break. Then come out and start all over. She seeked help from mental health professionals, and while most might have been doing their best, in the end the vast majority of their decisions seemed to be based on their legal liabilities; "what if she goes and does something bad and then I'm found guilty". The result was a tendency to over medicate "to play it safe", and to over-react to small situations and the intimate details told in session. The end result was that she pretty well lied in session to say what the doctor wanted to hear, in order to not suffer the overreactions. Hands up if you've received the "I'm legally obliged to inform you that your wife wants to kill you" call? More than once? Or if you've gone to bed to find your wife in a coma, a suicide note taped to the wall over her head? Or to find her in the bathtub, knife in hand, blood everywhere? Yep, my hand is up. The second time I resuscitated my wife, she looked at me like I'd failed her... "why did you bring me back?" Let me tell you, that made me really, really think about suicide and myself. I cannot even begin to imagine the continuous nightmare she lives, and I don't want to. I realized that my thoughts toward her killing herself were self-serving and selfish... it was for my own reasons that I didn't want her to die. It wasn't for her, it was for me. To think that there is a cure for what she's going through is somewhat naive... between the lack of understanding of brain chemistry, and the pathetic mental health care system that would have to provide any such care, it ain't happening in our life time. Go watch One Flew Over The Coockoo's Nest. Guess what? The 5 psych wards I've seen my ex-wife locked up in were pretty fucking close to that. No joke. In the end, my ex-wife said she wanted a divorce so I wouldn't find her body. No question in her mind that she would kill herself, it was just a matter of time. I believed her, and empathized. What I think should be provided is the right to assisted suicide. To not provide it is barbaric, and uncivilized. We put animals down all the time to save them the pain and suffering, and yet refuse to do the same for people. That's fucked up. And really, I don't care if someone else pulls them self out of the game "erroneously"... Darwin in action. Sure, call me an asshole, such is life. The hard part would be who gets to make the decision on who's allowed to pull their own plug. Don't even want to think about that in a world where people are banning Dire Straits tune that has "faggot" in it. So yeah, killing yourself should be allowed, with clinical precision and effectiveness, in a controlled manner.
I obviously can't speak from experience (having never killed myself), and can only offer a personal viewpoint into what is an intensely personal, and therefore individually unique, experience. I would explain the motivating causes of most of my depression, but there's an overriding desire to not tell. I actually stopped during typing that sentence, four or five times, to delete it. The reason is that even disclosing there is a hidden factor may invite inquiry. But, I think it's important for people to know that this is how things can work. I'll placate my subconscious by saying this instead: don't ask, I won't tell. That stands for the psychological motivations. The physical have already been posted elsewhere. Throughout all of my bouts, there has been only one time where I "lost the plot". That was the result of the wrong thing at the worst time and an absolute bitch who blindsided me with a knack for psychotorture. Apart from that one experience, I've always been what I would refer to as a functional depressive. I didn't, and don't, show any public signs. Those I do tell, such as your fine selves, are only because of the limited anonymity. I have a track record of making sure I only tell the people that can't help me, or will dismiss it. Even at my absolute worst, apart from that one time, I have always felt that I was thinking with calm and reason. I totally understand that that letter could have been written by someone at rock bottom. I don't have the psychotherapy chops, but I would think that is in some ways akin to psychopathy. Bat shit insane, but cool, calm and collected..... while wiping the dead hooker brains out of the trunk. On the subject of religion, I'll admit I have faith but I don't follow any particular religion. I don't see suicide and faith as being mutually exclusive. You don't have to love your deity to worship and obey them. You don't have to agree with everything they do. You don't have to even like them. Western culture seems so inured to the "loving, beneficent" god. Other cultures, particularly polytheistic ones, will tell you some gods are downright feared. When you conglomerate all of the range of belief into one deity, you must necessarily include the bad aspects of life: death, pain, disease, loss and so on. An all powerful god is all powerful. If anything, a monotheistic approach will only make it harder for mentally ill people. How do you accept a loving god who is also "responsible" for the pain you feel? If that then spirals into agnosticism or atheism, this can serve to deepen the depression if the person is from a particularly religious background. They may then struggle with guilt over questioning their god. Really, my point is, stop asking cut and dried questions or using them to make points. It doesn't work that way.
I don't know what to say.. I grew up miserable my entire life. I remember being 4 years old and knowing I was depressed. In kindergarten I remember kids in grade 4 always being all "I have a gun and I'm going to shoot you", I was teased, bullied, pushed around, shoved and still kept going. 10-13 years old is usually the worst for an unpopular kid, when you're unpopular, the a-holes love to taunt you. I specifically remember one time when I was 12 years old in the school yard at lunch time, one kid held me down while another tried to suffocate me, at that very moment I just thought - just kill me already, I don't want to be alive. I'm still a miserable ahole to this very day. It's like nothing's changed, oh boo hoo poor me, it's probably my god damned fault anyways. My parents never believed I was actually "depressed" but pushed me to go to see psychiatrists and government case workers who DIDN'T DO SHIT ALL. My dad was a hardass in my childhood, but I guess that's expected when you grow up in a rural French family, it wasn't rare back in the day to get beaten at 4 years old for doing something wrong (now days, very wrong). I contemplated suicide thousands of times, but I never went through it of course, but there was this one time - I seriously thought I was going to do it, my dad's shotgun was loaded in the garage, I stared at it for about 5 minutes before deciding it wasn't a good idea. So 8 years, was it a good idea that I didn't? Yes/No. Yes because for the first time in my life I have a friend who actually gave a rats ass about me (girlfriend) and she's a psychiatric nurse so knows how to help out with difficult shit, so it's nice to actually talk to someone who can actually help, but No because all my life I was told I would never amount to anything and to this very day it feels like I never will - I graduated with a BA in Politics (BAD idea) two years ago and haven't had a single lead to employment since. Right now I feel like that I feel worse NOW than I ever did back when I was 12, but since this time I actually have FRIENDS, it's bearable. (PS - rural Manitoba, Canada sucks as everyone knows everyone) I don't know what really else to say.. well I didn't try to sound like a whiney loser or anything. It's just crazy that there ARE so many people killing themselves when people don't even realize that they were depressed in the first place, depression IS serious. One thing that helps me get through the day (er weeks): trying good beer, but that's just me.
Im for assisted suicide of terminally ill patients. My dad died of cancer and the last 3 months after the doctors realized there was nothing more they could do they just pumped him full of pain killers until he shoveled off. Dying this way of cancer does not leave much in the way of dignity. So I generally agree with assisted suicide in these situations. I guess Im not against healthy, physically, individuals that decide to kill themselves (how are you going to forbid or stop someone who is determined to do it?), Assisting seems pretty fucked any way you put it. Maybe not fighting their wishes but not participating would be a more reasonable route? I like many have gone through insanely stressful periods in my life where Id probably fallen into some of the categories of clinical depression. Mostly due to school and time management skills. But I knew, one the time would pass (finals/school/work would be over), I could change my behavior to alleviate some of the stress (ie time management, work out more, talk my problems over with people), and being raised atheist I had a healthy fear of death believing that there was NOTHING on the other side of it. Thus suicide was something that never seemed like a reasonable option, not that I've never had those fleeting moments of thinking about it, but it just not worth it.
I think The Man Show once did a fake ad for a "Die Like A Man" service. Whereupon a terminally ill patient could instead opt for a more noble and awe inspiring death, i.e. killed in a prison riot, whorehouse heart attack, etc.. I don't think it would ask too much to allow someone on death's door to go out in a hail of FBI gunfire during a mock bank robbery, as opposed to slowly wasting away in some narcotic induced coma. Surely it would be cheaper. As for more serious thoughts, well, Nettdata and others put it best, so why try and say it better. We've all suffered mild depression, I don't think that gives us the authority to condescend to those with the major version of it. I've always been somewhat intrigued by the stigma attached to getting assistance for mental health issues. If a person had serious problems with their liver, lungs, or heart, they would be viewed as a complete dumbass for not seeking medical help for it. However, when there is something wrong with the mind/brain, arguably the most important facet/organ of our body, we are seen as inferior for not being able to handle it on our own. I doubt too many people could cure psychological/neurological problems through sheer resolve or willpower anymore than we could unclog arteries, remove cancerous cells, or even repair muscle damage the same way.
I've been writing a website for the past 3.5 years (and a fucking book) to tackle this very problem. This disagreement, condescension, vitriol and hate mail I get tell me that we are still a long way away from your viewpoint being completely embraced.
I think a large part of what complicates the discussion is that many of the relationships in our lives are, for better or worse, ones of unspoken reciprocal responsibility. To be a husband, son, father, boyfriend, friend, etc. in a functional manner (not merely in the "everyone has to be someone's son" way) is in some ways to have not only a stake in the well-being of another human being, but also to have some sort of responsibility to work towards it. Obviously there are limits to this, but its a large part of what these relationships mean. One implication is that one should ay least consider (not necessarily prioritize, but consider) how our decisions affect those in our lives. This makes suicide a precarious balancing act, even if one looks at it "rationally": even if you take it as given that it will relieve/end their pain and this is a good thing, there's the suffering that it causes those around the person in question. To end ones life, for those who aren't hermits, is to willfully inflict pain upon a lot of people. I don't know the answer to the "my pain vs. theirs" calculus, and I suspect there isn't one. And to let others dominate one's decision-making is, in general, a horribly unfruitful path. But any truly honest consideration of the topic requires acknowledging and deeply considering that you are not the only stakeholder in this decision.